Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion in Flintknapping - Theory, Replication and Scientific Discussion Forum Forum

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Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion

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Bullethead		#41	[-]
Posts: 1203 Jan 5 12 4:37 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Funny thing... What us knappers usually call an "Ishi Point" is more commonly (amongst the scientific types) known as a "Redding Side Notch". Named for a town in northern California (or the guy the town was named after), it was a fairly common type of point in the PNW, apparently replacing the long-barbed Gunter type in most areas during late prehistoric to early historic times. IOW, there are "Ishi points" not made by Ishi himself that are a century or 2 (at least) older than Ishi. Still, for all we owe to Ishi, I don't mind calling it an "Ishi Point". If anybody deserves having a point named for him, it's Ishi. -Bullethead May your flakes always run as you desire
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Western Lithics	ISHI POINTS, HERE IS SOME OF MY NOTES. PHOTOS BY DENNIS , JEB AND PETER	#42	[-]
Posts: 462 Jan 24 12 6:29 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	http://monache.blogspot.com/2008/03/ishi-points-some-collected-by-jeb.html
WilliamMunny		#43	[-]
Posts: 500 Jan 25 12 8:13 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ray, what are the provenance of the goldstone Ishi and the insulator Ishi that you have pictured? Both appear to exhibit traits not shared by the other Ishi points. http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
1442		#44	[-]
Posts: 47 Jan 25 12 1:53 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I enjoyed looking at all the ishi points at the link above. If you look close at the goldstone points described as two differant points it appears to be the exact same point in both photos, The only differance is that the sections missing in the second photo are not missing in the first photo. Everything else about the two points are an exact match, The white dots, The dark spot on the left side, and all the flake contours along both sides. Check it out under ishi points in private collections March 2008
WilliamMunny		#45	[-]
Posts: 500 Jan 25 12 2:17 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	1442 wrote: I enjoyed looking at all the ishi points at the link above. If you look close at the goldstone points described as two differant points it appears to be the exact same point in both photos, The only differance is that the sections missing in the second photo are not missing in the first photo. Everything else about the two points are an exact match, The white dots, The dark spot on the left side, and all the flake contours along both sides. Check it out under ishi points in private collections March 2008 That's not all that appear wrong with the points I mentioned in my last post. I'll wait for Ray to respond before we examine the points......... Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
Lobo69ss.primalfires	ttt	#46	[-]
Posts: 180 Feb 21 12 11:19 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I`ve been watching this post for a while now... nothing yet from Mr. Ray? I know it`s been a while since anything has been posted here, has this discussion died? I hope it`s just taking a break to gather it`s second wind, but then again... who knows at this point?
caveman2533		#47	[-]
Posts: 1944 Feb 21 12 6:47 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I too have been watching and waiting. "The only difference is that the sections missing in the second photo are not missing in the first photo." True , in the first photo, the pieces are there, But the point is clearly broken, with the pieces laid in place. In fact it is my belief that the point is broken in half also. Partway up the right side of the first photo you can see a fairly deep notch, and the crack that has snapped it in half. To me I see much wider notch entries on this and the blue insulator glass point than the others. If when you go to Rays site and click on the group of pics you will get a lineup appear on the bottom of the screen and you can choose individual photo's Steve Nissly
WilliamMunny		#48	[-]
Posts: 500 Feb 21 12 8:29 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	In deference to Ray, I have withheld my opinions. Gentlemen, there are in my judgement much more wrong with the points in question than the chameleon like growing of sections. . Examine them closely and express your thoughts........... Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
philflintstone		#49	[-]
Posts: 703 Feb 22 12 4:31 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I did a couple of goldstone Ishis for a guy last year. He had a magazine article he'd printed off the Internet that showed some points that Ishi had supposedly made out of goldstone. I don't remember what magazine it was but the pictures were different than the ones Ray posted on his blogspot. That was the only time I'd heard about goldstone Ishi points until seeing Ray's blog. Philip
mohawkwoodman		#50	[-]
Posts: 525 Feb 13 13 6:44 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Can anyone manage to post a cross section view was he a downward pressure flaker or straight in pressure "pancakes"
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WilliamMunny		#51	[-]
Posts: 500 Feb 13 13 7:22 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	mohawkwoodman wrote: Can anyone manage to post a cross section view was he a downward pressure flaker or straight in pressure "pancakes" Johnson, no one can say for sure as the few accounts of him flaking were observations made by well intentioned folks with zero practical knowledge of pressure flaking. All we have are the bonafide pieces made by him that can be studied and replicated. From studying these, in my opinion, he flaked more downward. To be honest, Ishi was only an average pressure flaker at best when compared to modern knappers. Besides that it I would estimate more than 90% of his points have at least one notch opened up a good bit. But when he did get a good one it inspires one to try to make it. The single biggest accomplishment in my knapping career to me was the first time I made a really good replication of a classic Ishi point. My background in traditional archery prior to flintknapping had prompted me to study every word written about him and to really appreciate Ishi as a man and to somewhat idolize him. I hated to see this thread deteriorate into semantics as to what an Ishi point is and what it is not, or some such nonsense. Initially I had hoped to lure the handful of serious Ishi point makers into a conversation that would I think have benefitted us all. I highly encourage EVERY knapper to make Ishi points. I feel it is well within the grasp of everyone and extremely satisfying............ Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
mohawkwoodman		#52	[-]
Posts: 525 Feb 13 13 9:25 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I've looked at some links and sites and it's really hard to pick out the details on them most photos are shiny but seems like lots of random flakes. I wonder what type of steel his nails were for replication. If only they gotten his language down while he worked. His movie with graham Greene portraying him mentions a book of his language that be nice to see in depth. Mohawk word for arrow Ano anorah and kanien rohahe for flint on the tip "arrowhead"
Bullethead		#53	[-]
Posts: 1203 Feb 14 13 8:27 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	@ William Munny: I wasn't trying to spiral off into semantics, I was making a poor attempt to get an answer to a question I have about this thread. Are you interested only in the points Ishi himself made, or in replicating the type (official name Redding Side Notched) in general? After all, Ishi didn't invent the "Ishi point", he was making examples of a type that had been used in northern CA for some centuries prior to his birth. If you're only interested in Ishi's own personal output, then you already know pretty much all there is on that and I can't add much to this discussion. But if you're interested in the type in general, then I can add a few things. Sadly, discussing the point type in general does require a brief excursion into semantics, just so we're all on the same page. I'm not trying to change anybody's terminology, I'm just saying how I use the terms so you'll know what I'm talking about. For the purposes of this discussion, when I say "Redding Side Notched" (RSN), I mean the type in general, regardless of who made it or when. When I say "Ishi point", I mean specifically those examples of RSNs made by Ishi himself. I will not use "Wintu point" because this isn't a valid type, it's an arbitrary and groundless distinction made by modern knappers in the morphological continuum of the RSN type. Now that's out of the way, on with the show. Source: Justice, Noel D., Stone Age Spear and Arrow Points of California and the Great Basin, Indiana University Press, 2002, pages 383, 395-398. First off, the Redding Side Notched was 1st described by Baumhoff and Byrne in 1959, for points found archaeologically. It was only later that folks made the connection that Ishi had been making this type, too. RSN points are found in this area: Ishi surrendered at Oroville, which is by the lake just outside the SE corner of this area. RSN points were apparently made by the Wintu and Yana groups from the mid-1600s up to the early 1900s. Given the timespan and area involved, there are scads of legitimate, antique artifact RSN points out there that were not made by Ishi. Problem is, few outside academia use the proper RSN type name but instead use "Ishi point". Also many folks seem to assume that Ishi was the 1st and only guy ever to make RSN points instead of one of the last of many. Thus, when somebody claims to have an antique "Ishi point", it's dismissed as a modern replica if the owner can't prove it was made by Ishi himself, without considering the possibility that it could be a perfectly legit RSN point made by some other Indian generations before Ishi. This is why semantics are important. @ Mohawk Woodman: As I understand things, Ishi used whatever tools and material were handy where he was at the time. Thus, even before he came to the museum, he was using horseshoe nails and bottle glass when he found them, instead of antler and obsidian. But if you're interested in the tradition upon which Ishi was drawing, then I offer the following: The above are all RSN points found archaeologically at the sites noted on the map. All are obsidian, all pre-date Ishi. A few examples, also from archaeological contexts, were made of bottle glass, which isn't surprising given that the type came into use during historic times. As you can see, base and notch morphology is rather variable. The flaking is usually random although some examples show sequential removals that create disjoint patches of regular patterns here and there. Also note that some have small serrations. With all the attention on Ishi, the contributions of another are largely forgotten. This guy was named Consolulu, apparently the last great knapper of the Wintu. His methods were described by Redding (the guy the town was named for, and thus the RSN point, too) in 1879. Here's the summary of Redding's observations of Consolulu as reported by Justice in the book cited above: Summarizing Redding's description, the process begins with a flake obtained from a lump of obsidian using indirect percussion, which was then worked by pressure flaking with deer antler having an end worked to the shape of a chisel. The flake was held in the left hand on a pad of thick buckskin for protection. The same antler tool was used to dull and strengthen the edge and to set the proper angles between flake removals. Notches were formed by using a much smaller antler tip of the same shape. The preform was held base up on the pad between thumb and forefinger and the notches were quickly finished. -Bullethead May your flakes always run as you desire
Bullethead		#54	[-]
Posts: 1203 Feb 14 13 8:49 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Having posted the above, I went looking for Redding's original 1879 text, found it for free, and it's VERY informative. Here's the link: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2449274?seq=1 Because it's out of copyright, you can save a PDF copy of your own, unusual for JSTOR. The part about Consolulu begins about 1/2way down the 2nd page (page 669) and goes to page 674. It is a VERY, VERY detailed description of the tools and how they were held and used, from knocking the blank flake off the flake core all through to the completion of the point from this flake. This is a MUST HAVE article, whether you make "Ishi points" or not. -Bullethead May your flakes always run as you desire
WilliamMunny		#55	[-]
Posts: 500 Feb 14 13 2:17 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Bullethead wrote ......... " I was making a poor attempt to get an answer to a question I have about this thread. Are you interested only in the points Ishi himself made, or in replicating the type" The answer was I thought, self evident. I guess not, here for your edification is copied verbatim the title of this thread....... "Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion" Bullethead wrote ......... "Sadly, discussing the point type in general does require a brief excursion into semantics, just so we're all on the same page" Why? I believe most of us ARE on the same page. You can call them what you want. I frequently display a frame of Ishi points (Redding Side Notched, Desert Side Notched, or whatever) at knapins and arrowhead shows. Many, many times over the years someone will say "nice Ishi points", never once has anyone said "nice Redding Side Notches". Bullethead wrote ..........."If you're only interested in Ishi's own personal output, then you already know pretty much all there is on that and I can't add much to this discussion". Firstly, I don't know all there is to know about ANYTHING, don't profess to. I'm not at all interested in pi$$ing matches about what to call something or some "new" evidence that has miraculously appeared about Ishi nearly 100 years after his death. What I am interested in is your methods for replicating this particular point style. Successes, failures, patterns of same, etc....... I also don't care for quite a bit of Justice's typographies, though this is a bit out of my range. Case in point, he has Calf Creeks in Kentucky. I already have a copy of the Redding article. It is certainly worth reading, though again, it was written by someone with no firsthand knowledge of flintknapping. I take much of it with a grain of salt. Better than nothing, but doubtless less than 100% accurate. So tongue in cheek, I'll bet Elvis and JFK rode their unicorns up there and bogarted all that pale blue and white obsidian. http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
Bullethead		#56	[-]
Posts: 1203 Feb 14 13 3:12 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	@ William Munny: So I guess I'm "Unforgiven" too, eh? That's a shame because it really limits the scope of discussion. OK, I take it you're just talking about the points Ishi made himself. All I was trying to do was put Ishi into context, and no disrepect to him for it. On the contrary, I think the context makes Ishi's story even more poignant. Instead of just being the last of his own band, he was perhaps the last of a much larger tradition, both in time and space, encompassing many different groups. Look at the map I posted above, consider the 2.5 centuries involved, and all boiling down at the end to Ishi himself. Excuse me while I drink to his shade. I myself consider Ishi as my role-model for when the Apocalypse comes because he was definitely the archetypical post-Apocalypse knapper. He applied his pre-Oops knowledge base to the tools and materials available afterwards, both familiar and alien, to fashion items that could put food in his belly, clothes on his back, and whatever else he needed to survive. You yourself say he "wasn't a good pressure flaker by modern standards" but I can't find any fault in his products. Fancy flake patterns are what you bury with the chief, not what you survive with. As to typology, remember that it's a scholarly tool made by and for achies, not something for the convenience of modern knappers. It's also a total mess due to a variety of factors and is only just now beginning to get sorted out. Justice is among those doing the sorting and he, AFAIK, has ZERO point types attributed to him. He's just trying to clear the underbrush and make things understandable both to academia and us laymen. I'm not disputing that "Ishi points" are well-known amongst modern knappers. I'm just saying that the "Ishi point" has no basis in typology. -Bullethead May your flakes always run as you desire
Pamunkey		#57	[-]
Posts: 1562 Feb 15 13 7:30 AM Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The arrowpoints Ishi was producing prior to coming to the museum were significantly different than the ones he produced afterward http://hearstmuseum.berkeley.edu/exhibitions/ncc/gallery_4_2_1_3.html The style he most often produced at the museum most closely resembled Wintun points. I read an article awhile back that contended Ishi really wasn't the last Yahi because he must have been taught how to make points by an older Wintun man, and therefore must have been Wintun himself and captured by the Yahi http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/96legacy/releases.96/14310.html . The author completely missed the fact that his arrowpoint style changed after contact (the points on the arrows stolen from Bear's Hiding Place are different than what he produced later on). Ishi had access to the museum's collections, and being an accomplished knapper, he could have replicated pretty much any arrowpoint style. He also made some highly stylized, extra long points for gifts.
Bullethead		#58	[-]
Posts: 1203 Feb 15 13 1:19 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	@ Pamunkey: It could also be that Ishi's group, like just about every other bow-using culture in world history even through the Middle Ages, had different types of points for different purposes. Thus, Ishi would have had a whole library of types in his head. -Bullethead May your flakes always run as you desire
Knapper42		#59	[-]
Posts: 1499 Feb 19 13 12:20 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	when we refer to an Ishi point these days, triangle shape, tear drop notches, etc., what is the typical length and width at the base? jack edit for question. what is the Ishi profile, plano/convex, flat, center ridges? Last Edited By: Knapper42 Feb 19 13 2:48 PM. Edited 1 times.
Bullethead		#60	[-]
Posts: 1203 Feb 19 13 1:42 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Metrics from Justice for archaeological RSN points morphologically identical to what most knappers call "Ishi points": Axial length (tip to center of basal concavity): 55-60mm Total lengtch (down centerline to even with basal corners): 60-65mm Width across basal corners: 17-20mm -Bullethead May your flakes always run as you desire
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Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion