Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion in Flintknapping - Theory, Replication and Scientific Discussion Forum Forum

RSS
Email

0 Points

Forum Jump

Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion

Author	Comment
LukeWebb		#21	[-]
Posts: 2011 Oct 13 11 11:08 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Wonderful stuff! I have just started making my first ishi points, I work a lot of bottle glass and use an iron pressure flaker and ishi stick same as he used, and I am still trying to get a real narrow entry but am able to get a decent expanding notch "teardrop" shape. I find for the longer ishi points a shard from the side of a bottle is a must unless you have a very large bottle base and you don't mind wasting a lot of glass to get the shape you want. If you can find a bottle with thick sides and get a longitudinal shard it will make an excellent triangle teardrop notched ishi point. I am currently trying to round up some chipped glass insulators, (so they don't have any value,) so that I can try making some points from those. I think there is more of a trick involved with that, your flakes will have ridges running around the outsides of them from the rings of the insulator, but a flake should travel along those ridges easy and they should remove nicely I would think. If I saw some of ishi's glass points I could probably say whether they are from a shard from the side of a bottle or not, when you make them that way one side tends to be flatter and the other side rounder, also when removing a inward curve like on the inside of the shard they flakes meet in the center and create kind of a swirly pattern along the center of the point, from the flake scars on that flatter side I think I could be sure whether it was from a bottle shard or not. Does anyone know what he used as a notching tool before his surrender? All I can think is a fine splinter of bone or a chisel shaped antler tine, perhaps that narrow entry teardrop notching was something he perfected more when he got iron tools? Last Edited By: LukeWebb Oct 13 11 11:10 PM. Edited 1 times.
	Remove this ad
Chippintuff		#22	[-]
Posts: 1038 Oct 14 11 8:42 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I've tried a glass insulator from a power line. I can't get anything very long out of it, and that takes a lot of time because I have to chip away so much material to get to a flat piece. They may not all be designed the same way. W.A.
philflintstone		#23	[-]
Posts: 703 Oct 18 11 5:33 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The serrations were pronounced like the two in the upper righthand corner of Pope's picture, Dennis. I made one similar to what I saw at the museum. I'll get a few Ishis made and take a photo. Like you, I have to be careful not set up a series of flakes since Ishi flaked in a random fashion. I use a steel nail in my pressure flaker and the non-abraded platform technique that FlintknapperJimmy has talked about for my primary flaking. For doing the notches I use the same pressure flaker with the tip filed to very fine point. Holding the preform against the ball of my thumb, I press the tip sideways against the edge and then push the tip slightly forward until I hear a 'click' as the flake releases. I do the entire notch that way without having to worry about breaking out the entry as sometimes happens with traditional notching. Philip
Chippintuff		#24	[-]
Posts: 1038 Oct 18 11 7:20 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Is there a method for doing primary flaking without abraded platforms? I have seen Jim Wynn's video demonstrating notching with no abrading, and I use it some, but I don't remember such being used anywhere else. W.A.
WilliamMunny		#25	[-]
Posts: 498 Oct 19 11 4:21 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Phil, I look forward to seeing some of your points. I will give your notching method a try. W.A., in order to pressure flake without abrading, just use a high margin. Basically place the tool tip higher on the platform where there is enough strength and integrity to allow a flake to detach. There were no abraders in Ishi's equipment, so some inferences have to be drawn. Either he used a high margin, or strengthened the edge by shearing. Unfortunately the written descriptions of his flaking leave a lot to be desired, even Dr. Pope's. The well intentioned people writing them had no basic understanding of flintknapping. Even a slight omission or error in what they "think" they saw if a fatal flaw. Until a time machine is invented, experimentation, common sense, and experimentation is called for................ Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
Chippintuff		#26	[-]
Posts: 1038 Oct 19 11 4:24 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	My expewrience is just not there yet. The few times I have tried to take a flake like that, the edge has crumbled. Practice and refinement, always room to learn. Thanks. W.A.
philflintstone		#27	[-]
Posts: 703 Oct 19 11 4:52 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The non-abraded platform technique is really quite simple. Where I wish to take a flake, instead of pressing against the edge like you would normally do on an abraded platform, I first put the tip under the edge of the preform and take a small flake by flipping the tip upwards. This leaves behind a little divot or hollow that you can seat the tip of your pressure flaker in. Then take a flake as you would normally. Steel doesn't grab obsidian and glass very well but that little hollow works like a charm. And it does tend to leave a sharp serrated edge. It takes practice but once you catch on, you can make small points very rapidly because no grinding is necessary. The only time I abrade the edges on my small points anymore is when I'm trying to put on a near perfect parallel pattern. Philip Last Edited By: philflintstone Oct 19 11 4:59 PM. Edited 1 times.
WilliamMunny		#28	[-]
Posts: 498 Nov 1 11 5:50 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Made a screamer today out of tri-flow obsidian. The notches are slightly smaller than 1/2mm. I will get a pic up in a day or two in case anyone is interested. I'm hoping to see examples from other knappers.......... Dennis Edit--- here are a couple pics. I'm not much of a photographer. It is exceedingly difficult to accurately depict the narrowness of the entries. They are .018" (slightly under 1/2mm) measured using certified feeler guages......... Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com Last Edited By: WilliamMunny Nov 2 11 4:05 PM. Edited 1 times.
Chippintuff		#29	[-]
Posts: 1038 Nov 2 11 8:03 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Dennis, what is your pressure flaker made of? I can get them narrow, but I have never tried to get that narrow. Maybe you flatten a needle? W.A.
WilliamMunny		#30	[-]
Posts: 498 Nov 3 11 2:28 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	My entry notcher is made with a rod from a needle scaler. It will stand the extreme thinness necessary for 1/2mm entries. Just less touchup and shaping of the tip. Once I get i n 3 or 4 flakes I use one of my horseshoe nail notchers to do all the rest. Actually you can do the entire notch with it if you choose.............. Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
	Remove this ad
douglas alcorn	ishi point	#31	[-]
Posts: 42 Nov 5 11 10:14 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	heres one that I made about a year ago,it was one of my first attempts at narrow entry style notch. Donnie mckinnis has it now, the notches were a little under 1/32 of an inch. For this style, I notch with a flat head screw driver looking thing that is razor thin,then once its stared I switch to a horseshoe nail and go from on top and push down,it lends a little more control and power.It is much easier if the point itself is paper thin to begin with.Mine is not as good as yours Dennis but I thought you might like to see it. Douglas
philflintstone		#32	[-]
Posts: 703 Nov 5 11 11:52 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Looks like a dandy to me, Douglas. Today was my last day at work so I'll have time now to get a few Ishi's made and pics posted. Philip
WilliamMunny		#33	[-]
Posts: 498 Nov 6 11 3:50 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Douglas, nice job. I saw that point at the Ridge. Phil, can't wait to see some of your nice Ishis. I've made a couple more but have gotten a bit sidetracked making some Cahokias.......... Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
Iktomiwicasa		#34	[-]
Posts: 3998 Dec 23 11 11:36 AM Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The long and short of it, IMO, is that Kroeber largely created a legend around Ishi. Alot of the so-called "new" information is actually old first hand accounts that never made it into print. In order to really flesh out the story, one really needs to go talk to the indian people from and who still live in the region. There's alot more to the story than Kroeber ever wrote about. Very nice work, BTW....but it's interesting that what you call a "classic" Ishi point seems to be a style he started making after he came to the University. They are very different from his original "pre civilization" style....they were quite a bit smaller and usually stemmed, not side notched. I strongly suspect that Saxton Pope was a big influence on the type of points he was making while at the University.
WilliamMunny		#35	[-]
Posts: 498 Dec 23 11 3:52 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	What I might call a "classic" Ishi point is what any knapper or replicator would call a "classic" Ishi point. Even if he only produced these points on the last day of his life and under the strict direction of Pope (or anyone else), they will always be the focus of knappers. Frankly, few are interested in smallish stemmed points including myself. I began this thread to compare replication techniques and to hopefully see other people's work. There are zero remotely accurate detailed descriptions of Ishi's knapping methods. All we have as replicators in that circumstance is trial and error. Hence my desire for comparison of methodology. I personally have no desire to debate the merits of Ishi's story. This discussion might be better served on the Archaeological/Anthropological forum.............. http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
Iktomiwicasa		#36	[-]
Posts: 3998 Dec 23 11 7:23 PM Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hey , it was an observation, not a criticism. No need to get yourself wound up, hoss.
philflintstone		#37	[-]
Posts: 703 Dec 24 11 10:36 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	This point was done with the non-abraded platform technique. The edge tends to be a little more ragged than an abraded platform but it is razor sharp. The notches were done by pressing the tip of my pressure flaker sideways against the platform instead of straight in. Philip
philflintstone		#38	[-]
Posts: 703 Dec 24 11 10:40 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I don't why but the second photo is stretched a bit. It doesn't showup that way on photobucket.
WilliamMunny		#39	[-]
Posts: 498 Dec 28 11 4:30 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Nice point Phil. Thanks for sharing. Did I understand correctly that you did all the notching from the side as opposed to from the top or bottom?........... Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
philflintstone		#40	[-]
Posts: 703 Dec 28 11 10:19 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	All of the notching was done from the side, Dennis. It takes a little practice to master and it works best on very thin preforms but I can generally make tighter openings when I notch with this method. I was trying for a more traditional look with this point but I've made points in the past with notch openings so tiny that a dollar bill would barely slide through.
	Remove this ad

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion