Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion in Flintknapping - Theory, Replication and Scientific Discussion Forum Forum

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Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion

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WilliamMunny	Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion	Lead	[-]
Posts: 500 Oct 2 11 3:45 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None I would like to open this thread to discuss attributes of known Ishi points and replication of same. The recent 100 year anniversary of Ishi's surrender has reignited my interest in these points. http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
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Chippintuff		#1	[-]
Posts: 1040 Oct 2 11 5:46 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Does anyone know how many of his points have been discovered (documented)? After reading about him, my heart goes out to him and his tribe. Has anybody searched the Yahi territory for more points like his? W.A.
WilliamMunny		#2	[-]
Posts: 500 Oct 2 11 5:55 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have been fortunate enough to handle 4 authentic classic Ishi points. I also was fortunate to handle all his bows, arrows, etc. that are in the collection of the Pope and Young club. The plates in Saxton Pope's books are also a nice resource. I am very suspect of several supposed "authentic" Ishi points floating around. Any point would need iron clad provenance to be accepted. The points in the pics I have made in the last couple weeks.......... Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
Forager		#3	[-]
Posts: 1736 Oct 2 11 6:31 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I never saw notching look so precisely like teardrops as in that last image. Very impressive. When he was a resident in the museum doing knapping demos for the public, were any given away or sold as souvenirs? Any idea how many he could have made (would anybody have been keeping track)? This could render authentication a challenge, particularly given the medium and the increasing number of excellent replicators. Do his points have a signature flaking pattern or habitual proportions? How much do we know of the Ishi Point from formal analysis?
WilliamMunny		#4	[-]
Posts: 500 Oct 2 11 6:50 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I, like many others have read practically every written word on the subject. It appears little attention was paid to such details and little actual scientific documentation on the finer points that would interest us was done. From examining the points, Ishi was only an average pressure flaker. But those notches on the classic examples are spectacular. Like the old saying "there's nothing new under the sun", much of the new stuff on the subject of Ishi is 3rd or 4th hand at best. Therefore little attention will be paid to it by most. It seems Ishi would chip arrowheads for folks visiting the museum and gift same. Thanks for the kind words on my notching. I have made several as narrow as .020. I never tire of making them. I made several dozen a number of years ago and hadn't made any since. I'm one who feels we should always give credit to those who opened the path before us. Ishi of course, but in my case I owe a debt of gratitude to Jim Winn. His videos are a blessing to each and every knapper. Giving freely of his time and talent to benefit all of us is no small thing and I am most appreciative. I modified the notching method I used several years ago to incorporate part of Jim's methodology. This in turn made my points much better on the average. Be prepared for many failures along the way. I would be very interested in seeing and hearing other points of view. I also will be happy to share my personal observations about this particular style as they pertain to replication................. Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
Forager		#5	[-]
Posts: 1736 Oct 2 11 8:01 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Was this the only type of point or stone tool of any kind that he made during his museum days?
WilliamMunny		#6	[-]
Posts: 500 Oct 3 11 2:26 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	He made several styles. Here is a copy of one of the plates in Dr. Pope's book showing a few variations. Of course most knappers and collectors are only interested in the classic expanding notch style............Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
Forager		#7	[-]
Posts: 1736 Oct 3 11 5:45 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks for the illustration from Pope's work. Although I recognize that this thread is about the Ishi Point, in the interest of expanding his profile as a knapper, any collections of his non-point work? W.A. mentioned the possibility of additional points being found in the old Yahi territory, I wonder if his old caves and shelters which were plundered had any other examples of stone tool types like scrapers, gravers, drills, etc. Even though he had access to metal and glass there is the possibility of a more diverse lithic cultural expression. If so, any images?
philflintstone		#8	[-]
Posts: 703 Oct 3 11 6:09 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I went to the Pope and Young museum in Minnesota a couple of weeks ago to see their collection of Ishi points. They had a few that were found in one of Ishi's campsites. Those were quite different from what most people think of as a traditional Ishi point. They were small serrated corner notched points. What I was told was that Ishi didn't start making the closed entry side notch points on until he was living at the museum. It caused quite a bit of excitement when he first made one so he made more of them. The longer and more delicate he made them the more excited people got about them until that was the primary point type he made. I don't know if he ever used that type of point to hunt with. Philip
Hummingbird Point		#9	[-]
Posts: 261 Oct 3 11 6:49 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Dennis, Would you happen to know if there are any good pictures of points Ishi made while he still living "in the wild"? Keith
WilliamMunny		#10	[-]
Posts: 500 Oct 3 11 7:31 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Keith, this link contains the only pics I'm aware of showing bonafide materials belonging to Ishi pre surrender/capture............. Dennis http://hearstmuseum.berke...ncc/gallery_4_2_1_3.html http://Kentuckyflintworks.com Last Edited By: WilliamMunny Oct 3 11 3:32 PM. Edited 1 times.
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Just a Flake		#11	[-]
Posts: 874 Oct 5 11 9:12 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Your points look remarkably like ishi's dennis. Nice job. I got to handle one that charlie had at osage a long time ago. It was a real treat. www.flintknappingtips.com
philflintstone		#12	[-]
Posts: 703 Oct 5 11 6:29 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I also got to see Charlie Shewey's Ishi points back in '99 at Osage. I'd have to say your notches are bit tighter than Ishi's originals, Dennis. Nice job!
WilliamMunny		#13	[-]
Posts: 500 Oct 6 11 3:16 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Marty, Phil, thanks for the kind words. I also got to handle Charlie's points many years ago. It made a lasting impression on me. As for the notches, once you have made a lot of them, care must be exercised to keep the notch entries from being too narrow. I'm interested more in realistic replication than pretty for the sake of pretty. Though there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I do sometimes make an exotic one just for fun. I believe .005" entries are possible, I'm making a tool now that should help me see just how narrow I could go. When replicating, I struggle most making the preforms with slightly incurvate sides above the notch area. The better ones I've studied all exhibited this feature. I also have to make an effort to keep the pressure flaking from developing a pattern. Ishi was only a fair pressure flaker by today's standards............... Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
philflintstone	points made by Ishi, Pope and Young museum	#14	[-]
Posts: 703 Oct 7 11 4:40 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Here is a photo of the points found in one of Ishi's campsites. There is some question about the center two points but the rest are definitely made by Ishi. Philip
Chippintuff		#15	[-]
Posts: 1040 Oct 7 11 7:38 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Dennis, How do you get that "general" waviness on the surface. It looks great, but every time I pressure flake, I get some kind of parallel pattern going. I may not get the two edges to mesh, but there is usually some kind of parallelism on both edges. Also, the most difficult thing for me on this type point is getting the notches to look exactly alike. It seems that regardless how tiny I make my flakes, I still get something out of balance. Advice from anyone would be appreciated. W.A.
WilliamMunny		#16	[-]
Posts: 500 Oct 8 11 3:02 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	W.A., Ishi's pressure flaking was just random. I have never saw any indication from his work that he had any concept of patterned flaking. As I work on a preform I must always remind myself to avoid any kind of pattern. Of course there's nothing wrong with making the point with a beautiful pattern either. As for the notches, if we examine the existing points, the majority of well executed notches are angled up slightly. The most important thing is to begin them at the same point on each side and from a concentric preform. But don't worry Ishi didn't always do these things either. I recommend taking an obsidian flake and making a quick round fairly thin preform. Then practice notching only around the perimeter. You can usually get 10 or so attempts per preform. When you can reliably make an acceptable Ishi notch at least 75% of the time then begin attempting to make points. Believe me it is discouraging to make decent preform after preform and ruin them on the notching. Hope this helps. These points are rewarding to make......... Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
WilliamMunny		#17	[-]
Posts: 500 Oct 8 11 3:10 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Phil, thanks for posting the pic. I don't remember seeing those points. I remember examining some of Ishi's equipment along with Pope and Young's African hunting bows at a large archery exhibition where Glenn and Joe St. Charles were set up exhibiting same. There were 3 distinct varieties of arrow points. Two were more or less corner notched but different and the third was definitely side notched and appeared to be a classic Ishi style. I remember being surprised by the diversity in point shapes. There were also two stunner/blunt arrows with small strips of bone lashed to the arrow tip at right angles......... Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
Chippintuff		#18	[-]
Posts: 1040 Oct 8 11 7:14 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I am suspecting that my preforms sometimes are not symmetrical, and when I add the notches, the asymmetry is magnified. To me it is shocking how different a notch or edge looks after the tiniest adjustment, so I get down to the final tuning and have trouble. I am going to try placing my preforms on a piece of graph paper and see whether that helps to get a symmetrical preform. I know the Indians did not have graph paper, but I need to learn perfection before I will feel competent to do reproductions. W.A.
philflintstone		#19	[-]
Posts: 703 Oct 8 11 8:27 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	There was a blunt/stunner in one of the displays but the photo didn't turn out so good. Most of my pictures didn't turn out well because of reflections on the glass cases. Its difficult to see in the photo but all the points are finely serrated, which was a surprise to me because I didn't know Ishi serrated his hunting points. Philip Last Edited By: philflintstone Oct 8 11 8:30 AM. Edited 1 times.
WilliamMunny		#20	[-]
Posts: 500 Oct 8 11 3:42 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Phil, were the serrations pronounced or the result of overlapping of pressure flakes? Do you have any pics of some of your Ishi points, I know you make good ones? Are there any things in particular you do as far as preparation of preforms or notching techniques? Maybe Jim Winn can be coaxed into joining the conversation.............. Dennis PS...... When you buy glass for Ishi points remember to get deeper colors. Here is one I made today from a beautiful peach colored piece of glass. As you can see as the point got thinner, I lost most of my peach color........... Dennis http://Kentuckyflintworks.com
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Ishi Point Tribute and Replication Discussion

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