your opinions on why the art of knapping degraded as time progressed in Flintknapping - Theory, Replication and Scientific Discussion Forum Forum

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your opinions on why the art of knapping degraded as time progressed

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sduyati	your opinions on why the art of knapping degraded as time progressed	Lead	[-]
Posts: 12 Mar 14 10 12:40 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None i would like for you to state your opinions, facts or theories on why the quality and craftsmanship of flint knapping in projectile points seemed to go down as time progressed froward, before the use of metal took the place of stone. i have a few theories of my own but would like to hear some others. thanks in advance for any input. it has always puzzled me as to why most of the more beautifully made points were earlier in the production of stone points and as time went by it seems that the art was either lost or just not feasible to do any more. so what theories do ya'll have? Is life good as it is or would it be better as it was? Why are we so disconnected from our surroundings?
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piper28139		#1	[-]
Posts: 849 Mar 14 10 2:44 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	After it rained for 40 day and 40 night the art of flint knapping was not on the boat......just my .02 cents...Curt Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a Rain dance
perri smith		#2	[-]
Posts: 412 Mar 14 10 3:45 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	at one time knapping was done "to the state of utility" that is will this point or blade do what it needs to do. as society progressed, knapping was not something that had to be done. some of those who knapped, moved forward from utility to art. whether in the form of eccentrics for adornment or tools of a higher appearance factor.
Pa KnifeRiver		#3	[-]
Posts: 503 Mar 14 10 5:12 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I was once told that the earlier point, like Fluted points and such, were made so nicely for respect for the life of the animal and as well, to satisfy any Gods watching the native people use them. And that makes a lot of sense. But we are not sure if they had any Gods that they believed in, but i would imagine that they did. Also, It seems like they realized that they didnt have to put so much time and risk into the stone tools. That could be why the newest points dont even have many notches... mostly just triangles, and if anything, side notches. This is a Very cool Question, I hope that many more people add their comments here too!
sailordad		#4	[-]
Posts: 379 Mar 14 10 5:24 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	i think it has something to do with man become more and more of a farming type of person than just a hunting person once man learned to plant and cultivate crops there wasnt quite as much need for stome points so why spend as much time on making them
Blattspitze		#5	[-]
Posts: 342 Mar 14 10 5:28 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I doubt that statement. It`s a question of which place you look at. Aren`t Ishi`s points a definite highlight? Or the danish daggers and egyptian knives, which came into production parallel or just before metal? Flintknapping was just a very little part of the material culture of different people, the emphasis changed. Maybe points of bone, antler or wood which are not preserved had more sophisticated forms when some peoples stone points became (in our eyes) less well crafted. It also depends on available raw material. We tend to overlook those ancient masters, who had to produce tools from the worst raw material. Just my two points ...
caveman2533		#6	[-]
Posts: 1944 Mar 14 10 6:15 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Many of the arcahic points especially in the midwest are pretty fine works of art also. You can find crappy knapping in evry time slot. steve
White Coyote		#7	[-]
Posts: 632 Mar 14 10 7:26 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I agree with Steve. Take NY for example. We have some super knapped Clovis points and right after we have some real tiny scruffy looking bifurcates then we move on to the ever rough lamoka point. Then in the trasitional woodland / woodland period we have some really super knapping with such points as the Susquehanna, Meadowood, and so on. When compaired to a lamoka point, these woodland points are way better. I think it kinda goes in ups and downs depending on where you live. In the area I look for artifacts, I've never found a crappy Susquehanna point (style is like my avatar). Even the broken ones are excellent knapping and large. My personal opinion is that in NY, knapping reached it's highest point during the woodland period. I'd be interested to hear what others have to say. Mike
MatSu		#8	[-]
Posts: 517 Mar 14 10 7:30 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I think it's more about the exinction of the mega-fauna. Paleoindians were mobile covering a lot of territory following herds of these animals. Along the way, they quarried some fine lithic materials. I think the quantity and quality of these materials would naturally cause an ancient knapper to "push the envelope" on his knapping ability. However, with the extinction of the megafauna, life changed. They became more sedentary. Eventually, in some areas, local materials become more scarce, or the local material is of less quality. But here's something I just thought of while typing the last sentence. What if the beauty of the paleo points IS utilitarian? I would think that the hide of a Mammoth, or Bison Antiquituus (sp?) is very thick. And your point must be more streamlined in order to penetrate that thick hide. If that were the case, then beauty is utiitarian. Ken
copper bop kid		#9	[-]
Posts: 368 Mar 14 10 7:41 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hello well you you could look at a decline in fine chipped points since the europeans came to the americas, 1. they had less time to just sit there and chip or food was less availible. 2 they had to watch there scalp more and new illness ran ramped. 3 how to cook the rock might have been lost or decline in good knapping teachers. If the average age of a old man was 30-40 alot of traditions were lost. Aleaste that's my opinion laters Emory
stoneknife		#10	[-]
Posts: 1398 Mar 14 10 7:58 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Although there is some truth to the original statement, remember that blades like the Sweetwater Biface were made during the last stone period, not the earliest one. Other fine examples exist from the Mississippian period including celts, maces, dance blades and so on and so forth. That said, there is some truth to the statement as by the Woodland and Mississippian periods, many dart points were made rather crudely and quickly and probably composed the vast majority of bifaces produced. In that statement is the answer if you ask me. The reason points got more crude was the introduction of the Atlatl. An Atlatl hits its target with 200 times the foot pounds of energy of a hand-thrown spear. A well-made point was simply no longer needed to get the job done effectively. Also, Paleo spears were generally in my opinion not so often thrown as jabbed into the quarry or target at hand. After all, if you are going to get close enough to a buffalo to chunk a heavy spear at it, are you going to throw away your only weapon or are you going to hang onto it and jab away along with some teamwork from your fellow hunters? So, since the Atlatl required you to throw your point at a target, there might be a lot more misses. Why go to the trouble of making perfect points if you loose a lot of them to rocks and misses? Barbs were also developed with the Atlatl because they wanted the point to stick into the target and stay whereas Paleo points lacked barbs so they could be jabbed in and withdrawn easily. That's my two cents worth. Simple practicality and use. The skill to do perfect knapping was never lost, but it may have become less common due to lack of need and possibly some specialists taking over the fine work duties.
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Knapper42		#11	[-]
Posts: 1499 Mar 14 10 8:28 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Blattspitze beat me to it but later era knappers put out some fine and complicated work. Still today head hunter find some finely made points that show high knapping skill levels made in a late time period. I've always believed that many, and maybe even most, of those clunky points that are found and are so fat they couldn't be hafted to as telephone pole were made by kids or beginner knappers. Present day new knappers crank out lots of points (fat & clunky), while their enthusiasm and drive to make a good point is high. Early man probably wasn't any different. Look at any collection and you will see many more clunker than finely done points, (unless the collector culls). More of the clunker are found than the fine points. Doesn't mean that more clunker were used but it could mean that the fewer good points were made because they were used until lost, broken, or used up. The same question could be posed for drawing art. Why are caves around the world found with detailed drawing of animals, etc. and in this country most of what is found is stick drawings or animal drawings without fine detail. Why did the use of red ochre follow across cultures, all the way from Neanderthal to the era of the American Indians. Was the use of ocher intuitive or did the belief travel with people through the ages. So many questions, when are they going to get that darn time machine fixed. Jack
Hummingbird Point		#12	[-]
Posts: 261 Mar 14 10 9:09 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Many people have observed a "decline" in point quality between paleo/early archaic points and middle to late archaic points, with some examples of both in later periods. The most common explanation I have found for this is that during the archaic period, naturally occurring climate change caused a general trend of dryer weather over much of N.America, creating much more open grasslands than is seen today. Combine that with the mega fauna extinction, and you have people trying to hunt animals that can easily outrun them in very open terrain (all of this is in very general terms). Imagine trying to hunt bison with atlatls in a situation like that. Lots of lost points due to missed darts lost in the grass and many wounded animals running off with your point still in them. Also, more time spend getting dinner equals less time to work on knapping. Higher human populations also mean you have to stay within your territory and use whatever is available. In later times, at least in the east, agriculture came in and fishing skills improved, making hunting less important, but also allowing for more time to find and work rock. Also trade networks were established to get better raw materials into territories that lacked good rock. During the paleo, with lots of big animals and few people, choice material and time to work were higher than in later times. The success rate of paleo hunts must have been very high since paleo points almost universally are shaped such that they come out of the animal just as easily as they go in (picture a Clovis, Scott's Bluff or Agate Basin, easy to pull back out of a carcass). So, higher quality makes sense if points can be reused over and over. Keith
philflintstone		#13	[-]
Posts: 703 Mar 14 10 9:38 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	A lot of the finer pieces are found in burial sites, not just here in North America but all over the world. Even today, most of the finest artwork is seen at religious sites. It makes sense to me that if you're going to make something to honor a deity or a great leader, you're going to do your very finest work because its going to be displayed in front of the whole tribe. The better your workmanship, the higher status both your gift and you will receive. Or if you're making points to trade, you'll also do your finest work because the status you receive. But if you're just going to get lunch you're not going to make something fancy unless its a matter of personal pride. Philip Last Edited By: philflintstone Mar 14 10 9:41 AM. Edited 1 times.
blueheron333		#14	[-]
Posts: 763 Mar 14 10 11:07 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	dinner wont mind what a point looks like.
caveflint		#15	[-]
Posts: 74 Mar 14 10 11:49 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I have mulled this question many times myself..I think it was for 2 reasons..I feel the glaciers exposed a lot of high quality flints as they receded for one thing.I think they pretty well had their pick of high quality cherts.We all know ourselves that quality flint is a key factory to the quality of point we make.And 2-I feel when the tribes were wanderers the groups were relatively small and probably had 1 flint knapper with a apprentice.When the permanent camp came into play thousands of years later I believe they all pretty well knapped their own tools...Just my 2 cents
NewbowPA		#16	[-]
Posts: 204 Mar 14 10 12:55 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'm gonna throw in with Blattspitze, et al. The ability to make well crafted points never went away. The apparent loss of quality could be put down to increased population and utility. Like blueheron said, from a practical standpoint there is absolutely no reason to refine a piece beyond the point where it will reliably perform its intended use. Increased population would tend to leave greater numbers of utilitarian pieces lying around, but there could also have been a change in social outlook that led to high quality being reserved mainly for ceremonial pieces. (I think I'm arguing against myself, now!)I doubt it was due to any general decline in available stone as plenty remains even though a lot of it is off limits to the average knapper today. sduyati: You started it. Whats your take?
wannabe		#17	[-]
Posts: 210 Mar 14 10 2:22 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	In the process of buying an elderly rock saw from a rancher with a buffalo jump on his place, I got an invite out and we had a good talk. He is over five hundred miles as the crow flies from the knife river flint digs in North Dakota and it is probably nearly that far by the time you find passes to get to obsidian west in Yellowstone country, but he collects the debitage from those imported stones to knap. I think good material was expensive and the knobby thick crappy points I see at pishkin museums were good enuff for short range work. The nice points used to finish off critters at the jumps here were little tiny points. If I weren't so lazy I would look up the name. They were finely made but out of tiny flakes. I think it all boiled down to economics. And in a population that aged fast, there would have been a lot of novices learning the trades and using proudly those first attempts and like all kids, losing them.
P nasuta		#18	[-]
Posts: 388 Mar 14 10 6:50 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Interesting question. I do not consider my self a good knapper yet, but I think I could apply the question to my fly tying experience. I've been tying for about 40 years, my dad taught me when I was 9 or 10. As I progressed through life I became a very good, and could tie the smallest, most complicated flies extremely well. However, I liked to fish a lot, as my perfect flies became worn or lost, I found that I could catch just as many fish on flies that were not tied quite so perfectly; so I tied flies to catch fish, not be perfect. So, like Perri said, their knapping and my fly tying is done only to the level needed to make the tool do its job. I think they probably got self satisfaction and clan praise over their best quality points, but was there best quality need all the time? Maybe not. Last Edited By: P nasuta Mar 14 10 6:52 PM. Edited 1 times.
sduyati		#19	[-]
Posts: 12 Mar 14 10 9:13 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	ok now that i have some unbiased opinions ill state mine. i find that in my area there is three noticeable downward slides in the apparent skill of flint knapping. not saying that the skill was not there because as already stated you can find very beautiful points from every time period in mans history. my theory coming from my own experience on using such weapons to procure food is.......... #1 with a hand thrust spear you need the sharpest cutting edge as possible for there is very little power behind a mans arm. the only power comes from your body weight. also you will 9 out of 10 be able to retrieve that point and use it many times more. so i tend to do a better job at flaking this type of point. #2 with the advent of the atlatl, points became smaller and more fragile and were being thrown greater distances and impacting with bone and rock (if you missed) with greater force. so the possibility of them being lost or shattering after only one time of use is enough to make me stop at the point of getting the job done and maybe not looking their best. #3 with the coming of the bow you again have even smaller and even more fragile points so there again i stop at the point that they will get the job done. i guess if you put it all into a nut shell why spend hours making a point that will passably never return to you when you can spend the same amount of time making three points that want break your heart when they break. i utilize the points that i make on the sharp end of a stick for hunting. i often wondered about why some points seemed more crudely made than others but as more arrows and darts were lost or points that i spent alot of time on perfecting (they were perfect only in my eyes for i am no where near even an average knappers ability) got shattered on bone or on rocks (for sadly i do miss) i begin to understand what may have been their way of thinking on the matter also. although my theories are not facts it seems that much of you think the same. i want to say thank you all for your input i enjoyed reading your thoughts on the matter. Is life good as it is or would it be better as it was? Why are we so disconnected from our surroundings?
ncboman		#20	[-]
Posts: 652 Mar 14 10 9:22 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ponder this myself and I think a combination of reasons. I think the ones that produced the finer points were fat Indians, not warring peoples so much. Game was plentiful and easy so plenty time for finer artform was available. As populations increased and expanded more warring occured and quality became secondary to speed. Also it became more necessary to make do with materials on hand rather than trek and trade for higher quality rock. Just guesses on my part.
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your opinions on why the art of knapping degraded as time progressed

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