Many thanks if you can help me out here!
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zaboomafoozarg |
How does one "spine" arrows? |
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Hey folks, I'm just completely new to this archery thing (I've been hanging out over at the Primitive Bows section but then I realized I'm gonna
need some arrows too, haha!) so I wondered, first of all, what does "spine" mean and how does one do it for arrows meant for a particular bow.
Many thanks if you can help me out here! |
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Rod |
Some principles regarding spine. | ||
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Spine is a measurement of the amount a shaft will flex when a force is applied to the nock by the loosing of the bow.
Given a right handed archer shooting conventionally (arrow on the left of the bow and fingers on the right of the string, a straight line of force through the shot and a clean loose) a matched shaft should leave the bow cleanly and quietly, recover from flexing and in lateral terms (left/right) go exactly where pointed. When a shaft is drawn back and loosed, a given force applied by the string pushes the shaft forward. The inertia of the shaft and the weight any point on the end of the shaft resists this force and so the shaft will tend to flex. Since the shaft rests against the bow, slightly offline from a centre line from the string through the bow, the shaft first flexes into the bow, then flexes around the bow as it passes and again into the bow as the shaft clears the bow. When this sequence of flexing is in harmony with the bow (it's power, length of stroke and width of the bow) the arrow will leave the bow cleanly and quietly, and recover to go in lateral terms where the shaft has been pointed at full draw. This is known as the archer's paradox, but the traditional explanation of paradox is based upon an incorrect understanding both of what occurs, and of what is desirable. The term "archer's paradox" was coined before arrow flight was fully understood scientifically, and the traditional explanation erroneously describes the shaft as going round the bow, straightening up and going where the bow was pointed. This explanation is potentially misleading. What is desirable is that the shaft go in lateral terms exactly where the shaft has been pointed at full draw. The bow is going nowhere and in any case is in fact pointed slightly offline from the line through the shaft to the target at full draw. NB. This assumes a traditional bow which is not centreshot and has side contact of the shaft on the bow. A weak shaft (underspined in American terminology) will flex too much, may strike the bow as it leaves, will shoot somewhat to the right of the full draw line of aim and is likely to fishtail (wiggle left/right). A stiff shaft (overspined in American terminology) will shoot more stiffly off to the left of the aimed line, but a slightly stiff shaft is generally preferable for practical reasons to a weak shaft. Factors affecting functional spine are primarily shaft length and point weight. Width of the bow at the arrow pass and shaft diameter are also factors that have an effect on spine selection. A longer shaft of a given material and diameter is by definition more flexible. A shorter shaft is effectively less flexible. A heavier point weight makes a shaft more flexible. A lighter point is effectively less flexible. A wider pass needs the shaft to flex more, a narrower pass requires the shaft to flex less. A larger diameter of a given shaft material is in principle stiffer, a smaller diameter less stiff (but not always in effect due to inconsistencies of density in wood). For practical purposes we assume a degree of consistency in a selected wood of a given diameter unless shewn otherwise. It follows that in any given natural material there will be a range of spine in any given diameter. If you know your draw weight at a given draw length and your safe shaft length there is a reasonable rule of thumb process for deciding on an initial selection of spine. This is predicated upon the fact that a shaft of a given length will be of the same spine if it deflects the same amount under a standard weight suspended from the centre of that shaft. How this can be usefully applied to the task of spine selection will probably make more sense when you understand these basic principles. But the ultimate test is where the shafts go when you shoot them, and this will at some point require that you become able to distinguish between what the archer is making them do from what they, the shafts are trying to do. Rod.
Last Edited By: Rod
12/11/08 3:16 AM.
Edited 2 times.
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zaboomafoozarg |
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You, sir, are amazing. Thanks a ton.
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wolfsire |
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"But the ultimate test is where the shafts go when you shoot them, and this will at some point require that you become able to distinguish between what
the archer is making them do from what they, the shafts are trying to do. "
This is where the importance of match arrows comes in, that is arrows of the same shaft weight and spine, same point style and weight and same style fletching. Theoretically matched arrows should perform the same so any difference in performace should be due the archer and therefore adjusted with practice for consistant shooting. Then, when there is no difference in performance do to the arrows or archer, you can better tune the arrows to the bow. So, if all the arrows in your matched set shoot either right or left of where you are pointing, you can then know that you can get better performance with a new set of either higher or lower spine.
Steve
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Rod |
Re | ||
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True enough, but precise matching is something that can usefully develope hand in hand with a growing awareness and judgement concerning one's own shooting
ability.
In the first instance it is enough to get the match in the right ballpark by assessing the average centre of groups, relative to a narrow vertical line on a blank sheet of paper. First we deal with the left/right, brace height and spine, making a direct line of force through the shot and loosing cleanly. This done we can adjust the nocking point and deal with elevation. only then do we worry about shooting at a mark. Rod. P.S. I was hoping by now that someone else would have pitched in with a cogent account of the spine measuring process.... Any offers?
Last Edited By: Rod
01/14/09 1:06 AM.
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Rod |
Amazing? | ||
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Thank you for your kind words. Never been called that before.... been called a lot of other things, not all of them repeatable.
Last Edited By: Rod
12/12/08 2:29 AM.
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Pathfinder78 |
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I thank you too Rod for this insightful post. Before this I actually thought that the arrows should fly in the direction that the bow is pointing/applying
force. I am by any rate and standard a terrible shot, due to bad habits I developed from being overbowed for a very long time. Now, I am trying to unlearn all
that and start all over again. Oh yes, one more thing that I think made me less aware of arrow flight is that I am left eye dominant, but I can only shoot with
the bow in my left hand.
Buttercup: We'll never survive.
Westley: Nonsense. You're only saying that because no one ever has. "The Princess Bride" |
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Rod |
Re: Paradox and eye dominance. | ||
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I have often supposed that the original intent of the traditional definition of paradox probably meant the same as my "shaft definition", since it is
so obvious that we should point the shaft were we want it to go, but the old definition has been so often repeated in ignorance, and usually with illustrations
(vide the illustration of archer's paradox in, for one example only , Hardy's "Longbow") showing what is so patently not true, unless we are
meant to be shooting a weak (underspined) shaft that by some miracle straightens up and does not fishtail), that it has acquired over time the unfounded
authority of repetition by the uninformed or the intellectually careless, when it in point of fact it is not supported by any sensible consideration of the
facts, post Klopsteg, Nagler and Hickman.
*** I guess you will need to close your left eye at full draw if you don't want to deal with varying degrees of lateral offset at varying distances. I note that on the public access shooting, folks who try shooting cross dominant can be as much as 20" to 30" off line at 12 to 15 paces. If you make shafts to go where you point them and loose cleanly from a direct line of force through the shot, you should be able to shoot pretty straight at any reasonable distance and have to offset only for windage. Rod.
Last Edited By: Rod
12/15/08 7:08 AM.
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Pathfinder78 |
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Thanks Rod, I read your instructions in the other subforum, and I'm practicing with my left eye closed already.
Buttercup: We'll never survive.
Westley: Nonsense. You're only saying that because no one ever has. "The Princess Bride" |
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StringDrivenThing |
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Rod, your description of "arrow spine" is the best I've ever read.
I've always wondered about pictures that showed the bow being aimed at the butts instead of the arrow. Your middle paragraphs [beginning with "The term "archer's paradox" ....] sum it up beautifully, thank you!' At last, the light bulb clicks ON ..... |
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alan |
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Just about everything Rod says is true, but you do need to be able to measure the stiffness , or "spine"of your arrows.The standard way to do this is
to knock two nails in your workshop door, 26 inches apart, and in a horizontal line, then rest the arrow shaft on them and suspend a 2lb. weight from it's
mid point. Then measure the amount of deflection.
Alan Clark |
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Rod |
Grain orientation? | ||
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And.....
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Pathfinder78 |
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Rod, here's another thought: Assuming non-centershot bow. Draw length 28". We've set up our spine so that arrows fly exactly where aimed (aiming
down the arrow, rifle like). Now we change our anchor, and draw to 29". But now the arrow is not at the same angle to the handle as it was at 28". It
is pointing slightly to the right, so, we aim somewhat to the left? And vice versa for shorter draw?
Buttercup: We'll never survive.
Westley: Nonsense. You're only saying that because no one ever has. "The Princess Bride" |
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Rod |
Variables.... | ||
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Well if you draw it further it will shoot slightly "weaker" but the question is, in practical terms, how much difference will it
make and how much does your inbuilt sense of body memory and intuitive shot orientation make an adjustment.
In brief, the formal answer is that more shaft flexing will make the shaft go slightly right (right handed archer).
On the other hand drawing longer can take the anchor out so that you shoot a line converging with the dominant eye to target line, not
Last Edited By: Rod
12/17/08 3:57 AM.
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Pathfinder78 |
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I asked to see if I am getting the lateral precision correctly, didn't really think about practical examples. I see I forgot the part about "more
draw, more flex". Thank you very much Rod.
Buttercup: We'll never survive.
Westley: Nonsense. You're only saying that because no one ever has. "The Princess Bride" |
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alan |
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Rod,
You ask about grain orientation. Arrow shafts are not equally stiff in all directions. Medullary rays grow in the wood from the perimeter to the centre of the log, like spokes in a wheel. Because they are in effect hard plates, they resist bending in a plane from the edge to the centre of the log. Look at the annual ring lines on the end grain. The medullary rays are at 90 degrees to them. A shaft is stiffest when being bent in a plane that is at 90 degrees to the annual ring lines, and least stiff when being bent in a plane that is parallel to them. As Rod has described, when an arrow leaves the bow it flexes laterally. The question is this: do you want the arrow orientated on the string so that its stiffest or its weakest plane is lateral? I prefer the weakest, so that it offers no resistance to the forces which are flexing it laterally, but others I know do the opposite. All this is largely theoretical with some woods, notably Port Orford Cedar, which show very little difference in preferred bending planes (weak medullary rays?) The spining jig I described above will show the prefered bending plane of a shaft if you take two deflection readings. with the end grain vertical, and then with it horizontal -providing the shaft is straight. Alan Clark |
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Rod |
In other words.. | ||
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Edge grain against the bow or flat grain against the bow?
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alan |
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Rod,
We may have to agree to differ here, in a friendly fashion I hope. You say edge grain against the bow is stiffer. Measuring the stiffness of lots of arrows tells me it is usually weaker, especially in pine. ( There is often little difference in POC, as I said earlier) The reason for this diference in pine, and other woods, is I believe, the one I gave earlier about the orientation of the medullary rays. By coincidence someone else has just posted that the spine of his wooden arrows came out weaker against the edge of the grain. He thought they had come out "wrong" Alan Clark |
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StringDrivenThing |
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Alrighty, I'm gonna belly up to the bar here too
SOME of my arrows have their stiffest "side" 90º out from the parallel grain. They're few & far between and the shafts were all the same species of wood. Alan, I'm aware of the medullary rays of which you speak; they're prominent and easily seen on quarter-sawn white & red oak. I was unaware of the stiffness they can provide. Hmmmm....I think the sheer number of edge-grain interfaces in a shaft far outweighs the few numbers of rays which might be present. I've seen a difference in spine of up to 12 pounds deflection when testing with the grain & then 90º out. One can feel this shaft "jump" when it's rolled on their leg whilst bending the arrow at the ends, much like finding the spline on a graphite fly-rod blank. [If you roll an aluminium shaft you won't find that it jumps & rolls to its weakest side because there is none.] I've read\heard that a variance of 2 - 3 pounds deflection is the limit for a quality shaft, and I've heard from some others that "it doesn't matter". Maybe flight testing arrows with gross differences would show me something, maybe not. To have a shaft flex & spin with two largely different planes of stiffness... would it want to migrate & flex to the weakest plane, regardless of how it came off the string originally? So many variables, and Occam's Razor just cut me back to reality and says if all this really mattered, it'd be bag of already well-known facts to the arrowsmithing world... |
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Rod |
Re: Grain orientation, preferences and the proofs. | ||
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Whilst it is no doubt true that there will be variation in stiffness, we have to think about how and why this occurs.
It seems probable to me that a greater range of variation will occur in rift orientation, if only because there is a wide variation in the run and spacing of of the grain. A hypothetical case would be to propose several shafts of the same ring count and density, but with a wide variation of run off in the grain alom ng the length of the shafts with one perhaps being exactly parallel and with no run offs. How do you suppose these shafts would vary in spine? I would suggest that all else being equal, the more extreme the run off, the weaker the spine. And that this issue would not arise in anything like the same degree with an edge grain (reed) orientation. Having said this, I do not know of any successful competitive shooter, and I know many in more than one discipline, who matches his shafts to the rift. When I last discussed this with my good friend F.Russell French, of whom you may be aware if you are an English archer who shoots competitively, he was of pretty much the same opinion. That overall, arrows spined to the reed are laterally more consistent in flight. Even in his best set, and he does make the most precise shafts you might hope to find, he will find a favourite shaft, which is harmonically more suited to the bow than most of the others, but this is a distinction beyond the ability of most archers to even recognise. There are quite a few folks who espouse "unusual" theories regarding equipment, set up and the shooting thereof, but these are not generally supported by the results they obtain in open competition. Not to say that it cannot be done, but it is sufficiently far from commonplace as to not support any contention regarding the efficacy of these notions. We find often enough that the proven methods work best for the very reason that they have been proven in the shooting. Anyone wishng to gainsay this has only to go out and prove it by consistently showing that by use of their chosen method, better results are readily obtainable. Having said this, it is your right to indulge in whatever preferences you might choose; is also something that you may or may not choose to defend in the only way that has any meaning, with the performance of your arrows in open competition. FWIW Rod.
Last Edited By: Rod
12/19/08 4:38 AM.
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alan |
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Rod,
But I do shoot with the reed of my arrows against the bow. The difference between us is that you say they are strongest laterally in this position, and I say they are weakest. You invite me to defend my position by shooting in open competition. In fact I don't need to do anything. Before moving to an area of the country where NFAS compeitions are few and far between, I did shoot in open competitions and between 1998 and 2002 won 15 times , came second 18 times, and won a medal at the Scottish Champs. Mostly shooting AFB, and always shooting with home-made arrows, and a home-made bow. Alan Clark |
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