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Hartung	Question for our buff tanners	Lead	[-]
Posts: 492 (11/10/08 10:19 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Hi, I'll get a 1,5 year old buff and probably another one 2,5 year old. I have no clue how big they are. What frame size should I build for the 1,5 year and the 2,5 year old bison? The largest frame I have is 7' x 6'. Is that enough or should I build a bigger one? I don't want to start building frames when the hides arrive. Another question concerning fur slip. I'll have to cover several 100 miles to fetch the fresh hides. There is a possibility of them being still warm. Without salting them how do I best fold them so that I don't run any risk of hair slip until I got them home? Put them in a plastic bag during the journey? Anything else to take care of? Thanks for your help!
Quillsnkiko		#1	[-]
Posts: 1668 (11/10/08 10:30 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	your frame is not big enough Hartung. I had a 15 month old cow in a 7 by 8 frame and it could have been 8 by 8..i had to cut a little off one edge to get it to fit the 7 by 8 frame I'd made. Bulls or males would probably be larger. I myself would not put the hides in plastic sacks if they are raw and its warm. on top a plastic tarp uncovered .. folded flesh side to flesh side and using some salt would probably be a good idea......if you want to save the hair. " You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
oogaboogachiefwalkingdeer		#2	[-]
Posts: 1250 (11/10/08 10:46 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I did a rather large bull a few years back and it took a ten by twelve frame and it just did fit. A seven by six is not gonna do it. Mike Smyth
Hartung		#3	[-]
Posts: 493 (11/10/08 11:03 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Quills, that's a good indication. Both buffs will be young bulls. 15 month is just a bit smaller than the young one I'll get. So I'll have to build a 8' x 8' frame. As for the temperature: outside it will be cold of course but the hide might still be warm after the kill. So how should I deal with that? I'll have to put the hide in the car and it'll take several hours of driving home. I don't think the Missus would appreciate the new smell of the car ;-). So what should I do? Oogaboogachiefwalkingdeer, just today there was a documentary showing some adult bulls. My good, they are huuuuge! I hope getting one some day…maybe J But first I'll train with the smaller ones.
braintanner		#4	[-]
Posts: 177 (11/10/08 11:07 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What's the speed limit these days on the Autobahn??(sp?) If you salt first.. it will want to drain. I'd just toss it in the back and proceed like normal Get it home salt it and allow it to drain till you build a frame at least a foot larger all around.. it will stretch quite a bit without the flesh. Have fun fleshing them without modern tech. It will take several days for the hair to slip.. don't ask me how I know this.
Hartung		#5	[-]
Posts: 494 (11/10/08 11:35 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Still no general speed limit but many, many local regulations. But that's not a big problem for me. I don't own a car J. And even if I happen to drive one I don't go fast any more. Paulette, I'd like to avoid the salting step. Just can't let it drain any more. Another thing is that it'll be for a historic representation, so no salt allowed. "It will take several days for the hair to slip.. don't ask me how I know this." The giant buff you did some month ago? But it is good to see that it'll take some days to slip. That calmes down my nerves quite a bit.
braintanner		#6	[-]
Posts: 178 (11/11/08 6:46 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Here's the one you're thinking of. Nice three year old cow. Here she is today.. wanting oil and smoke and more elbow grease. not a lot more cause she's thinned down pretty good she is not a winter fur like the one on the cab. I have a lot of irons in the fire. I slipped the fur from the giant 49sq ft 3 yr old 1800 lb grainfed bull. my first. I traded the majority of that half tanned dehaired bull bison rawhide to Gray Wolf, aka Chuck Burrows for an excellent custom made knife and sheath from that same skin and so it was hardly any loss I took.. actually I learned a great deal. a win win situation. "Paulette, I'd like to avoid the salting step. Just can't let it drain any more. Another thing is that it'll be for a historic representation, so no salt allowed."
Hartung		#7	[-]
Posts: 495 (11/11/08 7:51 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Thanks for the pics! Nothing better than picas to get an idea. The two I'll get will be young bulls, no cows. I'll start making myself a nice dry scraping tool this evening. Tool that I also want to use for fleshing. The one you used for the buff, was this the short scraper you presented the other day? The one with the short wooden handle?
Hartung	Blade	#8	[-]
Posts: 496 (11/11/08 10:41 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	On to the blade. I started with this blade for fleshing (and dry scraping?). It is not finished yet. It is 2" wide, 1/3" thick and 4" long. The angle of the blade is 40°. Weight is 300g (10oz.) Anything to improve? Width? Blade angle? I also intend to make a smaller blade. Any idea as to its width and angle? Thanks!
n2everythg		#9	[-]
Posts: 52 (11/11/08 5:49 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	what kind of steel did you use for that scraper? looks like leaf spring steel? would that work well? where did you get hold of it? I find myself in a similar circumstance. well perhaps your's is a bit better planned. later wade
Quillsnkiko		#10	[-]
Posts: 1670 (11/11/08 10:57 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hartung I have scrapers that are less angled and more angled than your is. My big cahoona .... which is one like Matt Richards sells.... is too large in my opinion for deer hides but works great on elk and buffalo.Its width is 2 inches and the angle is tapered back a lot more than yours is. Its about 3 inches long. I would love to make one similar to it only smaller for deer hides .I have a number of scrapers wheich Ive made from old files and osage orange handles ..which are not tapered ( angled ) as much as your is. when sharp they work fine as well. Starting out I only do the sharpening on the angled side with a belt snader and a really fine grit belt. you do not want to mess with the flat side of the blade ..except I do curl the edge with a ceramic rod....If you know what I mean. When you sharpen a blade there is a tiny sliver of metal that will want to curl one way or the other on the very edge . curl it one way and the blade will cut really well ..curl it the other way and the blade will be duller.I can't think of what its called right now. I use a fine diamond file & the ceramic rod...... in between big time sharpening of the blades on the belt sander.. You can flesh a Buff hide with a dry scraper ..damp. something you can't do with a deer hide. I have a feeling you could do it with a cow hide to ...though Ive not had one lately to try.Of course the hide has to be in a frame..tight. I think your blade should work fine once all done ..polished up...sharpened and mounted in a handle of some kind.Every scraper I have has a different kind of handle to..and the angle is different ..but they all work fine ... if really sharp. sharpness is the one thing.... that really counts. Quills " You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
Hartung		#11	[-]
Posts: 499 (11/12/08 11:01 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Wade, I don't know what kind of steel it is. But it surely isn't "knife steel". I'm nevertheless confident in that it will hold its edge for the hides I'm scraping this winter. The edge is already quite sharp although it's far from being finished or even sharpened. The meat and grease attached to the hides won't have any chance J against that blade - hopefully. This evening I increased the angle of the edge to 20° (Quills thanks!) - looks absolutely threatening and gives lots of confidence - the hides can come. I'm not afraid any more J. There are know 2,5 hours of rasping in it. Quills, you post was very helpful! Still some work to do….
Quillsnkiko		#12	[-]
Posts: 1677 (11/13/08 9:21 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think that angle is looking a lot better Hartung..it looks more like the blade I got from Mac Manness.... of course its not done yet... once its polished up and sharpened.... it should work great . You could drill a hole or two in the square end and mount it on a angled metal bar.... which is what the mac Manness blade is mounted on. then the the bar is mounted in a wood handle. I would love to make a half size one for scraping deer hides....If I can get photo bucket to download the pictures I will post a picture . It Would not be hard at all to make the handle. Old large files or hoof rasps worked down make awesome blades for scrapers. Hoof Rasps..can be picked up cheap at flea markets..and are just the right size and weight. and the quality of the steel is great. " You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
Hartung		#13	[-]
Posts: 500 (11/14/08 1:17 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Quills, rasps would surely be great but I don't have a belt grinder to thin them down. Yesterday I read that Indians took "every bit of metal scrap" to build their scrapers - so if they could get along with that I won't complain J. But of course, a "rasps scraper" would be great. I just went to our local ironmonger to get some more steel, 1 3/5" wide and ¼" thick. The guy was very kind and covered me to grind them at his store. Maybe next time I'll come back with a rasp in my hand and see what he'll sayJ. Try to get you pics up. I'd love to see them. I had troubles with photobucket recently and can't upload pics. Don't know why. Went to imageshack.
YTBM		#14	[-]
Posts: 869 (11/14/08 7:19 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I made an imitation MacManess dry scraper for myself. I traded a small buckskin to a knife maker friend who made me 5 blades for it. He made them from a chainsaw bar. I don't know if he re- tempered it to be a bit harder or what. I don't know anything about metal working. The blades are not as hard as some of my old dryscrapers that were made from files and rasps but they can do an elk hide with only a couple of touch ups. And they can be touched up with a file pretty easily. They blades are drilled so they can be mounted to the handle with nuts and bolts. I have another dry scraper with an caribou antler handle and a block plane blade that is mounted with rawhide wrapping. It works really well. The block plane blade sharpens and holds it's edge about the same as the chainsaw bar blades do. For dryscraping hair off I like my blade to have a wider, flatter edge so I am scraping a wider swath with each stroke. I can see for thinnning or fleshing fresh hides, that are still damp, that a rounder edge might work better. "The world needs both perfume-makers and tanners; happy is he who is born to be a perfume-maker, woe is he who is born to be a tanner."
Quillsnkiko		#15	[-]
Posts: 1681 (11/14/08 11:06 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	top picture is one made from a small plane blade . both ends are sharpened so one has to have a piece of rubber taped on the back end blade sos not to cut your hand. You can see one end is flatter than the other..that was the plane cutting edge. the rounded end was the unsharpened end of the plane blade.It is mounted at a 45 degree angle on a foot stool leg one can buy at a lumber yard with a bolt.Easy and quick to make. quite effective if sharp. the next 2 are made from files and osage orange .. which I made.the blade on the large one is 1 1/4 inch wide and 3 inches long ..the osage handle is about 1 1/4 inces round. The angle is much less than on the manness scraper . the larger one has scraped many a hide the smaller one I use around edges ..near the cords holding the hide in a frame. I will take a picture of the mac manness one. which is entirely different. Billy...I have wanted to make a smaller one like that big one...I will mount the blade on the handle with bolts like you did ...... as I have no way to drill & tap the threads into the handle bar ..like the mac manness scraper has. The blades are just epoxied onto the dry osage orange handles ..which works very effectively. Its nice to have more primitive scrapers if one is talking about the method of scraping to folks though. The picture of the elk leg bone is what I use to flesh deer hides or elk... it does not work as effectively on buffalo. But Indians used longer ones to flesh Moose hides but there the frames are slanted and they are on the frame on a tarp so they can really get some force behind the stroke.You do not need a lot of force to flesh a deer hide.if you get behind the flesh fat & membrane in a small area it all just strips of very easy with the elk leg bone ..and very clean I might add. and I find that easier on my back than leaning over a beam any more. And...... in fleshing the hide with the elk leg bone you are prestretching the hide.from side to side..as that is the way I flesh my hides.not from neck to tail. I'll try to get a picture of the mannes scraper ..and how the blade is attached.so simple ..even a cave woman could do it.LOL!! " You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
Hartung		#16	[-]
Posts: 501 (11/14/08 11:27 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ok, now, on the bottom you see a scraper I made today. Handle is yew, blade is steel. But I'm almost certain that it is just simple steel that can not be hardened because the edge is quite soft. I think that'll have to go to town on Monday to get myself some nice "carbon" steel and start all over again. Quills, I like the two scrapers you made. Thanks for showing. ".if you get behind the flesh fat & membrane in a small area it all just strips of very easy with the elk leg bone .." Yep!
Quillsnkiko		#17	[-]
Posts: 1685 (11/14/08 4:03 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	a straight handle like that I have never tried.... Ive no idea if it will work or not..tip the blade up on your arm..and that is the angle one is using to scrape the hair and grain off the hide..ir your arm towards your wrist. .... if the blade is really sharp .... one can actually gently run the blade over the hair on your own arm and shave it.of course you will irritate the skin on your arm a little.I will get a picture of the mac mannes scraper this evening posted. If photo bucket will work. " You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
Quillsnkiko		#18	[-]
Posts: 1688 (11/14/08 7:42 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	here is a comparison between the home made scraper and the turbo model from mac manness.this is a blade I am working on and a close up of the turbos attachment. I wish I could drill and tap a metal bar or blade . but while I have grinders and belt sanders etc..I do not have a drill press or a way of threading metal. the bar on the manness scraper is 5/8ths inch thick and 1 1/4 inches wide.It obviously has been heated to make the bend. the length from the end of the metal to the bend is 13 1/2 inches.from the bend to the end where its attached to the blade is 2 1/2 inches ..so the overall length of the bar of metal the blade is attached to is 16 inches.the Blade is tapped with threads and the blade is attached with 2 hex head screws that go thru the bar and are flush. the heads are very large 1/2 inch in diameter. the bar of the handle is mounted in a wooden handle with 3 brass screws. The wood extends 3 inces beyond the end of the metal bar.so the length of the scraper is about 18-19 inches and its fairly heavy. I feel this scraper is a bit too heavy for deer hides... I seldom use it for deer...... but perhaps a guy would not think so????? but ........its a very well made tool and well worth the bucks. about 75 I think??? Ive had mine for years .I even ordered extra blades from Mac. Ive picked up some metal blades that fit on some kind of grass trimmer tool that are hardened metal ....maybe 1 1/2 inches wide and 8-9 onches long .I should be able to get 2 scraper blades for each blade.I think they fit some kind of Stihl grass & weed trimmer . But they were marked down at Wally world to like 50 cents each. Hope this helps Hartung .... Quills " You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf." Last Edited By: Quillsnkiko 11/14/08 8:11 PM. Edited 1 times.
Hartung		#19	[-]
Posts: 513 (12/01/08 12:44 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I got myself real tool steal and finished my hide scrapers. Ok, they are not very paleo but "first nation compatible" … at least to some extent ;-). Cold working steel, 8mm thick, rasped blade, heated to about 800°C (light red) and cooled in oil. The small scraper got a yew handle and the large one a wych elm handle; both blades glued with epoxy. I know that epoxy is not paleo either but my main aim was to first make a usable scraper. If it works I'll perhaps change it to a more authentic style scraper. I'm waiting for the hides now….. Thanks to all who helped me getting on the right track by presenting you scrapers. Last Edited By: Hartung 12/01/08 12:47 AM. Edited 2 times.
Quillsnkiko		#20	[-]
Posts: 1744 (12/01/08 9:38 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Nice looking new scraper ....I used the epozy stuff to . Those are some nice Quality looking ....thick steel blades.and nice handles as well. Do you know you can easily knock off the blade if you need to change the handle or whatever by putting the whole tool in the freezer .....then just tapping the steel.It will pop right off pretty easily without harming either the blade or the handle...if its frozen. A tip my gunsmithing brother told me..gunsmiths use when they glassbed barrells. I know what you mean about making a more paleo scraper I have a elk antler Ive had for years just waiting to be made...into one or two.... I was even able to trace a pattern off a old elk antler scraper from the 1800's a friend had in their collection. Now if I would just git off my duffer..... " You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."

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