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scalpcreek2 wrote:In reading about the 2 Horn Shelter Texas burials that both bodies were covered in ochre....and ochre being found in many of the "clovis caches" which were most likely burial goods, i have my guess as to why a deceased person of that time would be covered in ochre. My guess is that it was to give the color of the deceased person, a more life like appearance, and hide the palor of death, the greyish -blackish color of a deceased person. Has anyone seen any other speculation as to why the ochre was used on these ancient body burials? Or do you have an opinion? I think this was tied in with ritual, the trip to the after-life, as these bodies were sent on their way with certain grave goods, needles, flint knapping tools, perhaps foodstuffs, tule mats, stone points, etc.

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Hi Peoples, I am only new on this site and hope I am not intruding.

I am not sure of the reasoning but it is a very old practice. My own opinion is that it was used widely in life and therefore it was natural to also use it in death. One of the oldest (maybe the oldest) Homo Sapien burial sites is at Lake Mungo in far western NSW, Australia. Lake Mungo contains no water and has not held water for over 15,000 years. It is a desolate remote lunar landscape of a place, where rainfall is extremely rare, but should you ever visit you will find it strangely enticing. I have been drawn back there many times over the years for a visit. Here is a description of a burial

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Quote from 'The Prehistory of Australia' by Mulvaney & Kamminga... located a second human burial half a kilometre to the east, recently exposed to heavy rainfall. These remains were called Lake Mungo 3. The position of the shallow grave beneath the dune's upper Mungo Unit suggested an age of 28,000 to 30,000 years BP. Within this grave the body had been laid out with hands clasped together and knees slightly flexed, ochre daubed generously on the body had stained the sand of the grave fill a pink colour.

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As well, many Ochre quarries exist in Australia. One at Wilgie Mia may have been mined for the past 40,000 years, this one in particular supplied most of the ochre used throughout the western half of Australia

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Quote from 'The Prehistory of Australia' by Mulvaney & Kamminga... the quarry represents the removal of many thousands of tonnesof rock. There is evidence that wooden scaffolds were propped against the rock face to provide access to some of the rock seams. The floor of the main pit is stratified to a depth of six metres, with quarrying tools preserved throughout the deposit. Heavy stones were used like mauls to batter the rock, and fire hardened wooden wedges, about half a metre long, prised out the ochre.

Wilgie Mia represented the blood of a dreaming kangaroo creation being. It was extensively traded throughout Western Australia and possibly even as far as Queensland (3000 klm away) Although Wilgie Mia may have been mined for thousands of years, it is not exhausted yet. That such tonnage extraction of Ochre was not exceptional is indicated by other evidence. Excavations in 1958 at Yarar rockshelter in the Northern Territory recovered 20,000 pieces of ochre, weighing 183 kilograms (about 400 US pounds) from 25 cubic metres of deposit.

Dierie people from Cooper Creek are known to have travelled 500 kilometres annually to collect ochre from the Bookartoo (Parachilna) quarry in the northern Flinders Ranges. In these annual expeditions more than 70 men each returned with 30 kilograms (about 65 pound) loads of ochre

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When you are in the business of quarrying it like this, it can't all be just for grave goods and decorations.

cool bananas ... greg

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scalpcreek2 wrote:

One comment I had on the interesting photos you posted is that the Australian abo. burial is not "flexed" as many or most of the burials in the north american area are. I suppose there is some reasoning and a story there also, as to why one group would bury in extended postition and another would bury in tightly flexed position.

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I don't know why that is either. My opinion, and only mine, is that they were very respectful of the dead .... but at the same time they were very pragmatic.

The burial I mentioned (Lake Mungo 3) was 28,000 to 30,000 BP, but within half a kilometre was 'Lake Mungo Lady'. This was a cremation with a date range of 24,710 plus/minus 1270 years. But now it is becoming accepted that 'Mungo lady' is actually a lot older. One thing is for sure, it is the oldest known cremation in the world.


The description is interesting, and bears out, in my opinion, that they were a very pragmatic race.

"it (the grave/fire pit) contained the burnt and smashed bones of a young woman, no more than 19 years old. Not much more than a quarter of the skeleton remained, but Thorne deduced that the body had been cremated on the beach, and afterwards the bones were smashed and scooped into a conical pit about 200 mm deep (8 inches). The leg bones and even the bones of the feet had been extensively smashed"

I don't think they had the same emotions as us. They lived a hard life, close to the earth, and death was something they dealt with every day. They hunted and killed whenever they could. I view the smashing of the body and interment in a pit as a pragmatic act, done, and not thought about again. The spirit had left.

Here is another burial description of a very big man (6,800 BP). (Please don't be misled by the word Lake ... Lake over here can mean a large depression that once contained water. maybe thousands of years earlier)"

"Another notable burial was discovered in 1969 on the shore of Lake Nitchie in western NSW. This was a very large man, 1820 mm (6'2") whose body had been crammed into a pit dug into hard Calcareous sediments. The man who was probably in his late 30s and had suffered from a dental abcess, was seated with his legs bent under his body, and head and shoulders forced downards, in order to fit his body into the small grave pit. He had been daubed with red ochre, and beside him were the remains of a small fire probably indicating ritual.

Along with scraps of pearl shell and a tektite (fused silica from a meteor impact) was a most impressive necklace ... a single row of 178 pierced Tasmanian Devils teeth taken from more than 100 animals, each tooth pierced for stringing. The man had been dead for at least a week before he was buried ... perhaps the task of digging into the brick hard calcereous sand of the lunette was too ardous for his companions. He was large, and as his knees and head stuck out prominently from the hole, they cut a niche in the bottom of the grave to accomodate his feet which were in the way, and his knees were then bent inwards.

Finally, to compress his body into the hole (perhaps in exasperation) he was pushed down with considerable force, sufficient to dislocate his neck and shoulders. The grave was then filled with red sand."

So on the one hand we have the necklace and the ochre to show that he was a member of his tribe in high standing. 178 pierced teeth represents a lot of investment. On the other hand the ground was hard and he was big and they had already lost a week, so dealt with the body accordingly and passed on.

They were nomads within their territory and to delay meant to starve. I think we have to learn to get inside their heads, picture ourselves suddenly faced with their world, and then we will understand their actions much better. But this is much easier said than done, we do it from our lounge chairs. Perhaps if it was easy to dig a grave, such as in sand, then the body was not flexed, but if the ground was hard, then the smallest hole possible was made to serve. This may seem very inhumane to us but we can always call on a diesel excavator if the going gets tough. LOL

I have arranged to go on a hunt with with some Aboriginals out past Bourke (far west) but as the details were all organised in a pub the last time I was out there I will have to chase it up if it is to happen, otherwise it will be sometime maybe, sometime never. LOL. We are going to hunt kangaroo with spears.

cool bananas ... greg :)

Quote: Scalpcreek

greg, I have a good friend who lives in Tasmania. So know a bit about it. did the Tasmanian devils also live on the mainland, or just on the island of Tasmania? I know there was a Tasmanian tiger, and the Tasm. devil. sounds like the T.D. teeth were a prized possesion there.

It may seem a bit odd, But the name Tasmanian Devil and Tasmanian Tiger were named by the English. As they only arrived 200 years ago they only found them in Tasmania.

But both these animals were widespread over all of Australia and their fossils are found everywhere, not just Tassy. They became extinct on the mainland thru (alleged) overhunting of themselves and their prey. Australia also had a lot of Megafauna that also went extinct. The arguments follow the same lines as that of the Mastodon and Mammoths. I think it was not necessarily one single reason.

At that time Australia was called Sahul, which comprised Australia, New Guinea, Tasmania, and about 150 klm of extended coastline all joined as one continent called Sahul. Sahul was a few island hops (max 50 klm at a time and always in sight of land or bushfires) from Sundaland (a larger version of Indonesia). New Guinea and Tasmania only separated about 6000 BP.

The megafauna existed in Sahul which had a much different climate (apart from the dead centre which has always been arid/desert) and a fragment of that climate is still existing in Tasmania. So it is anyones guess whether the Megafauna went extinct thru climate or overhunting or some other reason. Strangely enough, no kill sites have yet been found in Australia. This is the holy grail over here. If kill sites can be found it is believed that they will confirm a 60,000 year occupation of Australia by Homosapiens. This is really something as at this time HomoSapiens was just moving into Europe to take up residence with Neanderthal.

Quote: Quillsnkiko

Veeery interesting Danggali .... more of the same if you have access to it.

I think anyone of us...... in the right conditions , forced to bury a companion in survival situations.... might do some of the same . Do the best you can .... thats all you can do. I cannot imagine digging in rock hard soil , a grave sufficienty deep to cover a human body....without a metal shovel... or spade....by hand.

Thanks for that. I have heaps on this stuff, but I don't want to bore you to death. On the other hand reading all the posts I feel very envious that in your country you can literally pick up Clovis points (and thousands of other types) that show beautiful craftmanship and skill that I can only dream about over here.

But, to balance that Australia has been inhabited for a very long time, and there are literally thousands and thousands of sites that have never been explored, even more that have only been investigated once or twice in the 60s-70s. So for an amateur like me there is an awful lot of virgin turf. As well it is not a topic of interest to 99.99% of the population over here. This is good as sites lay undisturbed.

Further, the locations, of those that have been found are not available to amateurs. Over here you are not allowed to even move an artefact if you come across it. This may seem harsh, but I understand it and agree with it. Nothing loses information quicker than an artefact that has been moved, it no longer has credibility in the archaeological world.

Quote: Tn Cliff Dweller

Could someone tell me exactly what red ochre is? iif it is something that is common to all areas?

Simply put it is rust mixed with clay.

The Wiki definition is:

Quote: Wiki

Red ochre and yellow ochre are pigments made from naturally tinted clay. It has been used worldwide since prehistoric times. Chemically, it is hydrated iron (III) oxide. Ochres are non-toxic, and can be used to make an oil paint that dries quickly and covers surfaces thoroughly. Many people believe that the best ochre comes from the area of Roussillon, France.

To manufacture ground ochre, ochre clay is first mined from the ground. It is then washed in order to separate sand from ochre, which can be done by hand. The remaining ochre is then dried in the sun and sometimes burned to enhance the natural colour.

The clay used to produce red ochre is thought to be the "red earth" from which the Hebrew's God created Adam in the Book of Genesis. In fact, the etymology of the name "Adam" is ancient Hebrew for "man of red earth." Red ochre can be found in great quantities in the mountains rimming the river basin where archaeologists place the biblical Garden of Eden, now in modern day Iraq. For the early writers of the Christian Bible, one can imagine the vibrant red colour of this natural clay evoking the color of human blood

It was used by both Homo Heidelbergensis and Neanderthal. I am unsure about Homo Ergaster or Homo Erectus but would like to think they used it too. It has always been used by Homo Sapiens and is still used in Australia today. Here is a pretty pic I pinched from the Wiki of ochre body paint



You can see the difference in colour by looking at the second persons arm in the lower left hand corner. Does that look like a digital watch with half a strap, right hand side just below middle ????

Dear peoples sorry about this long post but I got carried away, LOL

cool bananas ... greg