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scalpcreek2 |
ochre covered burials.....purpose of ochre? |
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In reading about the 2 Horn Shelter Texas burials that both bodies were covered in ochre....and ochre being found in many of the "clovis caches"
which were most likely burial goods, i have my guess as to why a deceased person of that time would be covered in ochre. My guess is that it was to give the
color of the deceased person, a more life like appearance, and hide the palor of death, the greyish -blackish color of a deceased person. Has anyone seen any
other speculation as to why the ochre was used on these ancient body burials? Or do you have an opinion? I think this was tied in with ritual, the trip to
the after-life, as these bodies were sent on their way with certain grave goods, needles, flint knapping tools, perhaps foodstuffs, tule mats, stone points,
etc.
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Charlie Hatchett |
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Scalp wrote:
"...I think this was tied in with ritual, the trip to the after-life, as these bodies were sent on their way with certain grave goods, needles, flint knapping tools, perhaps foodstuffs, tule mats, stone points, etc..." -------------------------------------------------------- Seems like a reasonable assumption, Scalp. |
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wolfsire |
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Speculation: It is magical stuff. It is used in cave paintings to depict things, but also to represent the spirit of individuals through hand prints. IIRC,
that is not just down under. Those prints are "painted" by a puff-type spitting which can be equated with the breath of life. Sympethic magic, put
ocre on the dead to give them back some live or protect them on the journey.
Steve
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Quillsnkiko |
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Scalp , back in the 80's some time... crs on the exact years... I got the opportunity to talk with a man from the west coast. who came to the midwest to
sell his wares at roondy voos etc.... He was from a west coast tribe and was a Pejuta Wicasa. a Medicine man. we did some trading... Quillwork for some of the
things he had, I wanted , gem stones.. Jewlery he had made etc and in the process I talked to him about different things... one of them was the meaning of
colors.. as I was doing quillwork..which is a sacred art form and I wanted to encorporate, colors meanings ...into my work.
Red has always been a favorite color of mine so I asked him quite a bit about Red..and we talked about red ochre amongst other uses of red. Red is the color of...... Protection of the Spirit.Red is the color of a wish for a strong Heart in battle ora trial to come. Red was used on food containers as a wish for abundance that there would always be food within. ( parfleches) Red is the color of blood ...the color of life. Red painted around the eyes was thought to help the wearer pierce the darkest night with keen vision. Depending on what tribal or even familial association you are talking about ..Red can be the color of the South.. the south is where ......Our spirts go after death. Other groups might use a different color for the south however. Nothing is set in stone.But the south is sort of universallythough of as where the spirit goes after death. Traveling the spirit Road... the Milkey way. Amonst some of the southeast tribes Red could also be the Color of War...Several tribal groups had upper and lower towns.. or villages. the lower were the red towns...they controlled the making of war. the upper towns were the white towns..the peace towns. Choctaw , Creek etc. So in covering the body of the deceased with Red Ohcre... These people were indicating they KNEW the human being had a spirit... and that it would go some where after death . And they wanted to help it do ..just that in any way they could . I believe also I read somewhere that egyptions also used Red ochre... in their embalming ..... it also is a drying dirt like substance... and would probably help in drying the corpse... and absorbing fluids. etc. Red is also the color of the Rising Sun... a new day and a new beginning. Red rubbed onto a effegy..gave " spirit life " to that object... so in covering the dead body with Red.. it was lovenly being given spirit life by those who buried it. The use of color was so universal amongst the first peoples that even enimies could ascertain the meanings of colors from afar. Quills
" You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
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scalpcreek2 |
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Thanks for the insightful replies. You guys are great resources! I am learning so much lately my head may explode from all the new knowledge. BTW i have a
round chunk of what I believe is ground up red ochre and some kind of vehicle, like animal fat or something that was found at an old campground. doesn't
appear to be in it's native state but perhaps already prepared for use. the Reds stone that the Cahodians had the "pipes" or figures of that
were found in the mounds...are one instance of the red being a super important color to NA and especially in the afterlife.
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Danggali |
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scalpcreek2 wrote:In reading about the 2 Horn Shelter Texas burials that both bodies were covered in ochre....and ochre being found in many of the "clovis caches" which were most likely burial goods, i have my guess as to why a deceased person of that time would be covered in ochre. My guess is that it was to give the color of the deceased person, a more life like appearance, and hide the palor of death, the greyish -blackish color of a deceased person. Has anyone seen any other speculation as to why the ochre was used on these ancient body burials? Or do you have an opinion? I think this was tied in with ritual, the trip to the after-life, as these bodies were sent on their way with certain grave goods, needles, flint knapping tools, perhaps foodstuffs, tule mats, stone points, etc.
Hi Peoples, I am only new on this site and hope I am not intruding. I am not sure of the reasoning but it is a very old practice. My own opinion is that it was used widely in life and therefore it was natural to also use it in death. One of the oldest (maybe the oldest) Homo Sapien burial sites is at Lake Mungo in far western NSW, Australia. Lake Mungo contains no water and has not held water for over 15,000 years. It is a desolate remote lunar landscape of a place, where rainfall is extremely rare, but should you ever visit you will find it strangely enticing. I have been drawn back there many times over the years for a visit. Here is a description of a burial Quote from 'The Prehistory of Australia' by Mulvaney & Kamminga... located a second human burial half a kilometre to the east, recently exposed to heavy rainfall. These remains were called Lake Mungo 3. The position of the shallow grave beneath the dune's upper Mungo Unit suggested an age of 28,000 to 30,000 years BP. Within this grave the body had been laid out with hands clasped together and knees slightly flexed, ochre daubed generously on the body had stained the sand of the grave fill a pink colour. As well, many Ochre quarries exist in Australia. One at Wilgie Mia may have been mined for the past 40,000 years, this one in particular supplied most of the ochre used throughout the western half of Australia Quote from 'The Prehistory of Australia' by Mulvaney & Kamminga... the quarry represents the removal of many thousands of tonnesof rock. There is evidence that wooden scaffolds were propped against the rock face to provide access to some of the rock seams. The floor of the main pit is stratified to a depth of six metres, with quarrying tools preserved throughout the deposit. Heavy stones were used like mauls to batter the rock, and fire hardened wooden wedges, about half a metre long, prised out the ochre. When you are in the business of quarrying it like this, it can't all be just for grave goods and decorations. cool bananas ... greg
Last Edited By: Danggali
03/28/08 2:29 AM.
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scalpcreek2 |
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Thank you Danggali for that very informative post! As you say man has been in Oz for perhaps 40 thousand years, and I was unaware of the use there of ochre in burials. And yes is was used in life here as well by the Native americans. I think red ochre is harder to find here than in Australia, although there are prehistoric red ochre mines, I don't believe it is found in that quanity nor is it exposed in huge veins like that. Since I am reading a book right now which discusses at length where the first americans came from and whom the skeletons of the most ancient americans resemble in bone structure, DNA etc....and it does include the resemblance in certain features to austalian aborigines, this is interesting to contemplate. It is all such a complex puzzle I doubt it will be solved in my lifetime. I have read of some of the archaeolgoical finds in the Lake Mungo area before but only briefly know much of them. So your input on this is quite interesting! One comment I had on the interesting photos you posted is that the Australian abo. burial is not "flexed" as many or most of the burials in the north american area are. I suppose there is some reasoning and a story there also, as to why one group would bury in extended postition and another would bury in tightly flexed position. |
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Danggali |
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scalpcreek2 wrote:
I don't know why that is either. My opinion, and only mine, is that they were very respectful of the dead .... but at the same time they were very pragmatic. The burial I mentioned (Lake Mungo 3) was 28,000 to 30,000 BP, but within half a kilometre was 'Lake Mungo Lady'. This was a cremation with a date range of 24,710 plus/minus 1270 years. But now it is becoming accepted that 'Mungo lady' is actually a lot older. One thing is for sure, it is the oldest known cremation in the world. The description is interesting, and bears out, in my opinion, that they were a very pragmatic race. "it (the grave/fire pit) contained the burnt and smashed bones of a young woman, no more than 19 years old. Not much more than a quarter of the skeleton remained, but Thorne deduced that the body had been cremated on the beach, and afterwards the bones were smashed and scooped into a conical pit about 200 mm deep (8 inches). The leg bones and even the bones of the feet had been extensively smashed" I don't think they had the same emotions as us. They lived a hard life, close to the earth, and death was something they dealt with every day. They hunted and killed whenever they could. I view the smashing of the body and interment in a pit as a pragmatic act, done, and not thought about again. The spirit had left. Here is another burial description of a very big man (6,800 BP). (Please don't be misled by the word Lake ... Lake over here can mean a large depression that once contained water. maybe thousands of years earlier)" "Another notable burial was discovered in 1969 on the shore of Lake Nitchie in western NSW. This was a very large man, 1820 mm (6'2") whose body had been crammed into a pit dug into hard Calcareous sediments. The man who was probably in his late 30s and had suffered from a dental abcess, was seated with his legs bent under his body, and head and shoulders forced downards, in order to fit his body into the small grave pit. He had been daubed with red ochre, and beside him were the remains of a small fire probably indicating ritual. Along with scraps of pearl shell and a tektite (fused silica from a meteor impact) was a most impressive necklace ... a single row of 178 pierced Tasmanian Devils teeth taken from more than 100 animals, each tooth pierced for stringing. The man had been dead for at least a week before he was buried ... perhaps the task of digging into the brick hard calcereous sand of the lunette was too ardous for his companions. He was large, and as his knees and head stuck out prominently from the hole, they cut a niche in the bottom of the grave to accomodate his feet which were in the way, and his knees were then bent inwards. Finally, to compress his body into the hole (perhaps in exasperation) he was pushed down with considerable force, sufficient to dislocate his neck and shoulders. The grave was then filled with red sand." So on the one hand we have the necklace and the ochre to show that he was a member of his tribe in high standing. 178 pierced teeth represents a lot of investment. On the other hand the ground was hard and he was big and they had already lost a week, so dealt with the body accordingly and passed on. They were nomads within their territory and to delay meant to starve. I think we have to learn to get inside their heads, picture ourselves suddenly faced with their world, and then we will understand their actions much better. But this is much easier said than done, we do it from our lounge chairs. Perhaps if it was easy to dig a grave, such as in sand, then the body was not flexed, but if the ground was hard, then the smallest hole possible was made to serve. This may seem very inhumane to us but we can always call on a diesel excavator if the going gets tough. LOL I have arranged to go on a hunt with with some Aboriginals out past Bourke (far west) but as the details were all organised in a pub the last time I was out there I will have to chase it up if it is to happen, otherwise it will be sometime maybe, sometime never. LOL. We are going to hunt kangaroo with spears. cool bananas ... greg :)
Last Edited By: Danggali
03/28/08 4:51 AM.
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scalpcreek2 |
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greg,
I have a good friend who lives in Tasmania. So know a bit about it. did the Tasmanian devils also live on the mainland, or just on the island of Tasmania? I know there was a Tasmanian tiger, and the Tasm. devil. sounds like the T.D. teeth were a prized possesion there. The flexed burial you describe for the 6 foot two chap, sounds more like what is normally found in archaic graves here, flexed tightly. I agree they were pragmatic. About the closest most humans of the 1900s came to the mindset of the abos there, in being hardened by dealing with death often, has been experienced by men from many countries in war. I am sure it happens to most nationalities, as a US citizen I am more familiar with WWII and vietnam, and know that dealing pragmatically with death and moving on was the order of the day in WWII in the european and pacific theatres. The same was true in VN. in war, it is a way of maintaining ones sanity, and not becoming too emotionally involved. Also agree that botht the native americans and the abos both showed respect for the dead (as long as it was dead from their own people and not an enemy). Many times NA skeletons are found with their head resting on a "pillow" of some type, in one case it was a tortise shell. Other bodys were given back to mother earth by depositing the bodies in a sinkhole with a small opening at ground level. |
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Quillsnkiko |
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Veeery interesting Danggali .... more of the same if you have access to it.
I think anyone of us...... in the right conditions , forced to bury a companion in survival situations.... might do some of the same . Do the best you can .... thats all you can do. I cannot imagine digging in rock hard soil , a grave sufficienty deep to cover a human body....without a metal shovel... or spade....by hand.
" You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
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Tn cliff dweller |
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could someone tell me exactly what red ochre is? iif it is something that is common to all areas?
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Danggali |
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It may seem a bit odd, But the name Tasmanian Devil and Tasmanian Tiger were named by the English. As they only arrived 200 years ago they only found them in Tasmania. But both these animals were widespread over all of Australia and their fossils are found everywhere, not just Tassy. They became extinct on the mainland thru (alleged) overhunting of themselves and their prey. Australia also had a lot of Megafauna that also went extinct. The arguments follow the same lines as that of the Mastodon and Mammoths. I think it was not necessarily one single reason. At that time Australia was called Sahul, which comprised Australia, New Guinea, Tasmania, and about 150 klm of extended coastline all joined as one continent called Sahul. Sahul was a few island hops (max 50 klm at a time and always in sight of land or bushfires) from Sundaland (a larger version of Indonesia). New Guinea and Tasmania only separated about 6000 BP. The megafauna existed in Sahul which had a much different climate (apart from the dead centre which has always been arid/desert) and a fragment of that climate is still existing in Tasmania. So it is anyones guess whether the Megafauna went extinct thru climate or overhunting or some other reason. Strangely enough, no kill sites have yet been found in Australia. This is the holy grail over here. If kill sites can be found it is believed that they will confirm a 60,000 year occupation of Australia by Homosapiens. This is really something as at this time HomoSapiens was just moving into Europe to take up residence with Neanderthal. Thanks for that. I have heaps on this stuff, but I don't want to bore you to death. On the other hand reading all the posts I feel very envious that in your country you can literally pick up Clovis points (and thousands of other types) that show beautiful craftmanship and skill that I can only dream about over here. But, to balance that Australia has been inhabited for a very long time, and there are literally thousands and thousands of sites that have never been explored, even more that have only been investigated once or twice in the 60s-70s. So for an amateur like me there is an awful lot of virgin turf. As well it is not a topic of interest to 99.99% of the population over here. This is good as sites lay undisturbed. Further, the locations, of those that have been found are not available to amateurs. Over here you are not allowed to even move an artefact if you come across it. This may seem harsh, but I understand it and agree with it. Nothing loses information quicker than an artefact that has been moved, it no longer has credibility in the archaeological world. Simply put it is rust mixed with clay. The Wiki definition is:
It was used by both Homo Heidelbergensis and Neanderthal. I am unsure about Homo Ergaster or Homo Erectus but would like to think they used it too. It has always been used by Homo Sapiens and is still used in Australia today. Here is a pretty pic I pinched from the Wiki of ochre body paint
You can see the difference in colour by looking at the second persons arm in the lower left hand corner. Does that look like a digital watch with half a strap, right hand side just below middle ???? Dear peoples sorry about this long post but I got carried away, LOL cool bananas ... greg
Last Edited By: Danggali
03/29/08 4:46 AM.
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Danggali |
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Dear Scalp Creek ... Hope I am not getting to far off topic ... just yell at me if I am mate !! Quills, if you are interested in Pre-historic mans courage to venture into the unknown here is a bit more. In the south western corner of Australia there is a gigantic plain called the Nullabor Plain, flat, treeless, covered by saltbush and bluebush. It is the worlds largest single piece of Limestone, around 1200 klm long and 200,000 square kilometres (77,000 sq miles) If you ever find yourself standing on it you can be sure that you are the tallest structure for thousands of sq kilometres, you will also feel very lonely, you will even be willing to make friends with the saltbush, the only other living thing. It is extremely hot, very dry and very arid. The limestone is covered in hundreds (thousands) of caves, camels venture carefully on to it, and horses don't like going on to it at all. The southern ocean washes up against the shore of the Nullabor and erodes into the cliff faces. This forces air into the vents and fissures causing moaning and growling sounds that can be heard many kilometres inland. I have heard reports of up to 300 klm inland. The moaning and whispering can travel at enormous speeds, so that what you think is some terrifying noise coming rapidly from the South quickly passes under your feet and disappears to the North. This is all the more terrifying as you are no where near the sea. The Aboriginals say that this is 'Ganba', a dreaming snake whose breathing is said to be responsible for the roaring sounds emanating from sub-terranean vents. Even tho I know this is only legend I was ready to run when I first heard it. A famous archaeological cave on this plain is Koonalda Cave. Just to reach this cave would mean venturing across waterless deserts for hundreds of kilometres, or travel around a coastline, from the north for maybe 6000 - 7000 kilometres, and then turn North across the desert for 100-200 kilometres. (as the coastline of Sahul has submerged Koonalda is much closer to the coast today) Not only did early man make this journey, (at this time the cave was some hundreds of kilometres from the sea) but they descended into the cave, total blackness, with the noise of Ganba all around, and travelled for hundreds of metres underground, digging flint from the walls and collecting water. They did this over twenty thousand years ago. They had no wood (Nullarbor is latin for Null Trees or No Trees) the most they could have used for torches was saltbush. Here is a schematic I drew from a book because I don't have a scanner. I don't think I would be game to go in, even with a torch, a tieline, and 300 cavalry waiting above just in case I stubbed a toe. LOL
Koonalda Cave Click Here If you are interested in what the finger markings in the cave mean Click Here for one possible explanation. But keep an open mind. cool bananas ... greg
Last Edited By: Danggali
03/29/08 4:55 AM.
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Quillsnkiko |
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Thank you Greg..I will check out your links.... loved reading your introduction.
Ive never been to Australia..the closest Ive come is reading about it and see Steve Irwin ..before he died doing shows on different areas of Australia. The place fascinates me. I have some friends who visited there years ago and their descriptions of what they saw was quite mind boggeling. They brought bac k Opals amongst other things. I have a musician friend ..Blackhawk and last summer at a roondy voos up in wisconsin some wheres... he got to meet and play music with a fellow who was from australia.. a Bushman ... who had come to the US with his wife and child for a visit , helped over here by some Native American group. The guy was tall for a bushman... and when he was in australia he lived in the bush some of the time and made digeridos the old way. any way Hawk said the guy was a fount of information about bush living ..went barefoot all the time and played a mean guitar as well.He had also been in the movie, Quigly Down Under..playing the part of the guy who gets the child they rescued . The fellow talked extensively about the conditions of the outback and means for survival. I doubt I could survive but I love to read about it ..and how other folks did and do to this day. Quills
" You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
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Danggali |
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Thanks Quills. Yes ... Steve Irwins Zoo is about 30 minutes from me, I live in Brisbane and his place is just north before the Landsborough/Maleny turnoff. He was a great entertainer but I was never a big fan ... way too much hype for me. I am more your David Attenborough type. LOL. I think his (Irwin) wife has just sold the place. Life moves on! I am not sure what you mean by my intro ... do you mean about India .. If so, thank you. I gather from your profile that you are a Native American, (is that what NA means ??) you are the first I have ever spoken to ... cool When I was younger I was a big traveller ... all over the world ... but now I like travelling mostly outback in Australia. I have a company vehicle so that makes life easy. I usually stay in small towns at the local pub for a night or two, look around and then move on to the next. Cities are constantly recycling themselves, old buildings knocked down, new ones go up, but outback things never change much so the old architecture remains. I am sure you would like the outback, there is always a small town with a pub (and friendly people) to stay in ... you don't have to do it rough. LOL. I always carry Water, Fuel, Camp Oven, Teapot and Food ... even tho I stay in the pubs I like to cook on the open fire now and then. My favourite time is when the sun just goes down, the pestilential flys disappear, a cool wind starts to blow and I am sitting on the 2nd floor verandah of a pub watching the town go to sleep, with a bottle of wine and some tobacco beside me ... the stars are just coming out. Crazy ... I know. LOL Well ... I think Scalp Creek will be scalping me for taking his ochre topic off track. LOL ... very nice to talk to you cool bananas ... greg Some Outback Town Pub Pikkys. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
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scalpcreek2 |
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Greg,
I would never get upset with a fellow such as yourself...taking the thread a bit off topic to show us places we most likely will never see in person. Australians and americans are much alike, in that as nations we are both very much independent, and love liberty. Most Aust ancestors and american ancestors started off as poor convicts or indentured servants. Both our countries share a lot. the photos of the outback pubs look a lot like some of the photos I have seen that my friend Graeme in Tas have sent me. Seems every other fellow over there is named Graeme too. I notice a lot of similarities in the architecture and the ambiance from town to town. Kind of a victorian look to many of the old places. thanks for your explanation of the Tas tigers and tas devils. I believe the tas devils are still around and not extinct but the tas tiger has been extinct since the earlyl 1900s from what I have read. There are still reports of people seeing a tas tiger now and then and video of it. Tell the prime minister I said G'day while I go on the paddock and have a stubbie. scalp creek |
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Quillsnkiko |
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this is a picture of Hawk on the right the australian guy in the middle .
Here are a few pictures of my friend Blackhawk..one has my KIKO in it .... she just loves Dick and his wife. ( they like her as well )
" You can't stop the waves .... but, you can learn to surf."
Last Edited By: Quillsnkiko
04/04/08 2:23 PM.
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scalpcreek2 |
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"shining" times. them are mountain man words.
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PaleoAleo |
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From my understanding, the use of ocher (especially red ocher) is very widespread - From prehistoric Australians though prehistoric Europe and Asia, and right
through the Americas. I suspect that our ancestors saw a spiritual connection between red ocher (hematite) and the red "life blood" of all living
creatures - thus employing it for many spiritual uses (as well as the rather mundane - along the lines of using the substance for a paleo sun block).
Paul Campbell has a new book out concerning pigments and first nations California tribes: "Earth Pigments and Paint of the California Indians: Meaning and Technology" It's an excellent book if you have an interest in earth pigments (as I do). Tom |
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PaleoAleo |
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I forgot to add this link to a website with info about Paul's book - some pretty pictures there too!
www.kumeyaay.info/body_paint_pigments/indian_ochre.html T |
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scalpcreek2 |
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Tom, thanks for the link....I looked at this book, but was more interested in another of his books on the indian primitive living in California and I ordered
it rather than the earth pigment book. so....you kind of led the horse to water, but I drank from a different puddle than brought me to.
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