Discussion: traditional bows in contemporary warfare (photo intensive)

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DarkSoul	Discussion: traditional bows in contemporary warfare (photo intensive)	Lead	[-]
Posts: 85 (03/16/08 9:25 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I noticed a photoseries from Kenia, Africa. I don't know the exact details, but it is stated that in the beginning of March, members of the Kalenjin and Kisii-tribe were fighting for land. This happened in the Olmelil valley, western Kenia. Twenty deaths are reported. The reason why I am posting this, is of course because of the bows and arrows, which are clearly visible in the photos. I am amazed by the size of both arrows and bows. I just wanted to share these photos about traditional bws still being used by tribes for warfare. Discussion is welcome. Here are the photos of the event. This is the result of a direct hit in the face. For a more disturbing photo (WARNING: no X-ray, but real life), click here. Source: GeenStijl "Sonuit contento nervus ab arcu." Ovid, Metamorphoses VI-286 Last Edited By: DarkSoul 03/16/08 11:06 AM. Edited 1 time.
Lost Arra		#1	[-]
Posts: 158 (03/16/08 10:59 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Wow. Kind of makes a bow-building hobby a bit more important in Kenya.
sumpitan		#2	[-]
Posts: 558 (03/16/08 11:45 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Powerful and extremely interesting photos. Plenty of arrow casualties in Kenya alone this year. Short, round-section selfbows ("the worst kind") have been slaying men in Africa for 20 000 years plus and apparently still do. Tuukka
Prairie Man		#3	[-]
Posts: 181 (03/16/08 12:48 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Well I guess bows and arrows are better than AK47s, but snowballs might serve just as well. I imagine that a few deaths could result but no slaughter on the battlefield. That there are no shields being used might mean this is more of a establishment of territorial boundaries rather than a total war campaign. A National Geographic film showed a similar battle in Papua New Guinea. - as an aside last night there was a TV show called " Last Man Standing " where 6 western young fit men go around the world and compete in rural traditional athletic events some of which involve fighting. Last night they were in South Africa and participated in a Zulu stick fighting event held during a wedding. They had a decent sized shield and a stick , the fights weren't quite all out but you definitely could get hurt. Some of the westerners were not quite sure about fighting after seeing a native man get a nasty head wound but in the end they all entered. They did just fine but you tell the adrenaline was flowing. Good show.
Bambazonke01		#4	[-]
Posts: 64 (03/16/08 3:56 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Geesh, Those guys spaced out every 5 paces is something else. Just like Agincourt. I noted some of the arrows didn't have fletching so were for close range. I think a lot of those arrows were dipped in sh*t and that poor guy that took one in the face will have trouble.. My son lives in Kenya so I'll get him to see if he can get some of those bows for me. I would be interested to know which wood they use. Jim
Bambazonke01		#5	[-]
Posts: 64 (03/16/08 3:56 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Geesh, Those guys spaced out every 5 paces is something else. Just like Agincourt. I noted some of the arrows didn't have fletching so were for close range. I think a lot of those arrows were dipped in sh*t and that poor guy that took one in the face will have trouble.. My son lives in Kenya so I'll get him to see if he can get some of those bows for me. I would be interested to know which wood they use. Jim
Thimosabv		#6	[-]
Posts: 5996 (03/16/08 8:24 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tuukka, yes you are right. Only when armor came into play did the need for larger bows and arrows become a nessessity on the battle field. "All primitive bows have been warbows at one time or another." Thimo. .........Even a 30# bow can kill. Very interesting.
The Burnt Hill Archer		#7	[-]
Posts: 172 (03/16/08 9:20 PM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	very interesting! it almost seems like a show from some of the pictures of them al dressed up in bright clothing and all. but obviously its not. nice shot of the guy using a sling in the 4th pic from the bottom. thanks for posting this. its kind of humbling seeing guys using our "hobby" in a life or death situation. Phil Stalk softly, and carry a bent stick.
toxophileken		#8	[-]
Posts: 5320 (03/16/08 9:33 PM) Administrator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Seems like I read in one of the TBB volumes about some of the African tribes using poison on their arrows. I wonder if any was in use here. Having longer shooting bows would seem to give an advantage in the type of battle shown. I wonder if there was any sort of tradition that stipulated size of bows, etc...? Ken
sumpitan		#9	[-]
Posts: 559 (03/17/08 2:37 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Poisons are used on Kenyan battle arrows. Accomplished runner Wesley Gnetich died from a poison arrow to the chest in Kenya earlier this year. How extensively this enhancement is utilized, don't know. Using camouflage or earth-toned colors would be of little use on such open ground where a man-sized, quickly moving target will be easily spotted regardless of the colors he wears, no? Haven't been to Kenya, but the vegetation shown in the pics suggests cost-benefit ratios to favor short bows made from small-diameter stock. Like, it takes several days of searching to find a stave fit for a long bow, whereas a 40-incher can be quickly made anywhere. Long arrows needed for the long bows compound the issue when making arrows out of open-ground bushes, where 20" shafts may abound while 30-inchers are a rare find. Short bows vs. long bows revisited. Short native bows are used for self-defence in many African cities. The guys in the pics may well be men who need to be able to carry a bow with them anywhere, unobtrusively. A bit hard with a 72-incher. Have never made full-speed downhill running shots myself but intuitively it seems to me that it's much easier with a short bow and a short draw than otherwise. Typical short draw shots are also quite a bit faster than typical long draw shots, a decided advantage in combat. Prairie Man, having shot very short selfbows and arrows at distances up to 60 yards extensively, I find your comparison of them to snowballs quite amusing. When armed with sharp broadheads of succifient mass (as African arrows typically are), those puny stick shorties and unfletched twigs will kill a man dead at considerable distance. Neither accuracy nor penetration is near as bad as many seem to think. Tuukka
Thimosabv		#10	[-]
Posts: 5998 (03/17/08 2:47 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Again, well said Tuukka!
Patrick St M		#11	[-]
Posts: 253 (03/17/08 3:19 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Have you guys not being following the news? This was all based on an election and past tribalism. This wasn't a typical "war". It was more like a soccer riot. Little planning and just escalated out of control. That's why you see the bright colored clothing etc. These were pretty civilized people reverting back to the violences that plagues African culture. Many of these guys have a bow as a sort of home defense arm but rarely use them.
jkekoni		#12	[-]
Posts: 291 (03/17/08 4:49 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I think this is actually the typical warfare these days. What may be somewhat atypical is the high amount of primitive weapons and the small amount of the firearms, but others than that this is not much different from Bosnia, Somalia and Sudan. The 1st world wars like WW II are actually highly a typical these days, but combined attacts, robbings and rapings by loosely organized gangs based on ethinc groups are the typical way. I think this is due to the morality that annexing your weaker neghbour is no longer politically correct, or by the fact that the cost of such warfare is perceived by greater than the benefit of it.
sumpitan		#13	[-]
Posts: 561 (03/17/08 5:03 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Patrick St M wrote: Have you guys not being following the news? Yes we have. Dark Soul specified in the OP this particular fight being fought for land. It's common to interpret acts of "tribal" violence being "like a soccer riot" or "like extreme sports, not real war". But 20 dead out of maybe 100 combatants using primitive weaponry on open ground is hardly anything else than war. The immediate, often trivial reasons leading to guys shooting each other with arrows typically hide age-old, deep animosity (competition for a resource) between groups of people. Professors Steven LeBlanc and Jared Diamond are among the authors to look up for myth-busting views on primitive warfare, which they conclude to be as common and as deadly (per capita) and intentfully so - as any modern war. E: a very interesting article on the subject: http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/Bows_and_arrows_deadly_weapons_of_rural_Kenyas_war_999.html "Victims with arrows, sometimes poisoned, lodged in their heads and chests have become increasingly common", say officials in Rift Valley hospitals. "We cannot know the time of day when they (Kalenjins) will come. If they catch you off guard, you're dead," says Samuel, 25, holding a bundle of ready arrows. Kalenjin elders train their boys how to use bows and arrows from an early age, the Kikuyu men say. But Kikuyus have had to learn quickly to fight back with the same tools. Several secret workshops employing 50 workers churn out bows and arrows for munition. "We have no other choice for now," he says. Seems like war to me. Tuukka Last Edited By: sumpitan 03/17/08 5:57 AM. Edited 1 times.
wolfsire		#14	[-]
Posts: 335 (03/17/08 7:43 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I found it intresting that their quivers all looked small, as if designed for hunting, rather than warfare. Steve
tzh		#15	[-]
Posts: 31 (03/17/08 8:23 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Ihave seen 2 or 3 bows wich were are similar to the B shape egyptian bows... maybe.
woodenwonder		#16	[-]
Posts: 10 (03/17/08 8:47 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Note also, there carrying their arrow in there bow hand, not their quivers. That and their crouching position are I guess the best way.
stnwerks		#17	[-]
Posts: 75 (03/17/08 9:33 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	In the tenth pic from the top you can see the quiver is covered on top, this surprised me as I would have thought covered or enclosed quivers were for wet climates. A bowyers gathering in Kenya would be very informative, but I would not want to be stuck at the shoot afterwards! steve USALUG MEMBER www.usalug.org
mijn hobby		#18	[-]
Posts: 392 (03/17/08 10:41 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Cool post! Jorik. Re-enactment is serious business down in Kenya WOW! Just joking, man that seems tense, i wouldn't want to be caught in the middle of such a conflict. Open field, poisonous projectiles, and close quarter combat a bit too much for my liking hehe. This is what i would call TRUE WARFARE as mean as possible but "fair" if you'd die you would at least have had an equal chance at killing your enemy as much as your enemy had the chance of killing you. Maybe a bit morbid, but both parties seem to be equally matched as far as weapons are concerned. Mark
Prairie Man		#19	[-]
Posts: 182 (03/17/08 11:25 AM) More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	sumpitan wrote: Prairie Man, having shot very short selfbows and arrows at distances up to 60 yards extensively, I find your comparison of them to snowballs quite amusing. When armed with sharp broadheads of succifient mass (as African arrows typically are), those puny stick shorties and unfletched twigs will kill a man dead at considerable distance. Neither accuracy nor penetration is near as bad as many seem to think. Tuukka The snowball comment was used to illustrate the insanity of war.. It had nothing to do with the lethality of their weapons, I'm sure a 30# bow can kill a man at a hundred + yards
toxophileken		#20	[-]
Posts: 5325 (03/17/08 11:28 AM) Administrator More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	A closed quiver would also seem to at least imply the use of poisoned arrows - at least to me. Not conclusive by any means, though. Ken

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Discussion: traditional bows in contemporary warfare (photo intensive)

Discussion: traditional bows in contemporary warfare (photo intensive)