fiddler49 wrote:
Fast Flight and it's cousins will cut through
wood nocks unless horn or bone over lays are be used.
...Absolutely not true !!!
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NOMADIC PIRATE |
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fiddler49 wrote: ...Absolutely not true !!! |
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fiddler49 |
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So Manny, Is that one of those myths? I haven't used FF but I've had lots of guys say that the FF with eventually cut through the wood nocks. Now very
curios, fiddler49
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2traxx |
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I have talked with many experienced selfbowyers who use FF on both self and backed bows with Overlays and without.They have not complained of failure
yet.Coincidently,one of them,Ted Fry,told me he has used every type string imagineable,with FF type strings being his preferred material and Linnen being his
least favorite.He said his linnen strings would just let go with no apparent warning.He said he works too hard on his bows to loose em to inferior string
material.I have been useing dacron myself for the last few yrs.I use it mainly,because i have it availiable and just cant get over the sticker shock of the FF
material.LOL
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CarvedTones |
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Sticker shock? How much is FF? The art-sinew is running me about 25 to 50 cents per string depending on whether I double it or quadruple it. After initial
stretch, I have shot 100 or so arrows on a 20# bow with no apparent change in brace height using a doubled string. When attempting heavier bows I have been
quadrupling it. I am not saying it doesn't stretch; I believe you when you say it does. But I was just pointing out that it isn't stretch that will
require frequent adjustments (or maybe it does if the minute changes I didn't notice are significant to you).
-Andy
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Salvador 06 |
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Sticker shock indeed...those space age fibers ain't cheap!
I've used fast flight on my selfbows for years, picked it up from Rich Saffold. My strings are really thin, with thickened loops and serving. Never had any trouble, and I don't like to use horn for overlays, its chipped on me once too many times. |
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toxophileken |
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I've pulled a D-75 string through the nocks on an FG bow that wasn't made for modern strings (actually my cousin on a bow I gave him with a string I
made for him), and I've had Dacron pull through the nocks on a wooden bow. On that wooden bow, I wrapped the damaged area with sinew, at Tom Mill's
suggestion (he also supplied the sinew and glue), and it is still holding up fine.
Modern materials laminated bows might be more sensitive to string material, from what I've seen. One potential danger with the more modern low to no stretch strings is that if overbuilt, they don't stretch at all when the limbs slam home, which could be harder on the limb tips. What happens is people don't do as Sal mentioned (building up the center serving for the arrow nock fit), but instead use more strands. When you are looking at a single strand rating of about 90# for FF and 130# for D-75, you can see that you get a huge overbuild factor if you use as many strands as you would for Dacron (to get the same thickness). Dacron is about 34# per strand or so... Many people build up the string loop areas on Dacron strings. With the modern strings, and using a smaller number of thin strands (giving a very small thickness in the loop area), it may be more important. A lot of guys use Dacron strands to build up the loops on their FF or other modern strings... I don't think it matters at all; but they may feel the Dacron cushions a little bit more compared to the FF. Speed isn't the only thing you increase with the modern materials. I have found them to reduce hand shock and noise as well. All of the benefits I found through my own use were confirmed by an article I read in "Archery Focus" magazine that said the majority of olympic coaches had their shooters using D-75 string, and an accomanying chart confirmed all the things I had found (faster, less shock, quieter, better wearing, etc)... I just haven't gone to them yet with my wood bows. I stayed as old as I could, for whatever reason. I agree with what Todd quoted Ted Fry on, and George as well... I woudn't use artificial sinew just to feel "more primitive", since it just looks more primitive... But I do use Dacron because it "feels" more primitive to me... Ha ha! I don't, however, have any illusions about my strings being primitive... If you want the look of artificial sinew, look for Dacron in a similar color. I find white Dacron to look pretty cool, especially when waxed. B-50 is around $8 a 1/4 pound roll or so, and the modern ones are around $25-$35 per 1/4 pound roll. You can get a pound of Dacron for about $22 or so. Ken |
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NOMADIC PIRATE |
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fiddler49 wrote:A myth indeed fiddler, I have FF on over 30 bows, with overlays of Osage , Ipe, Guava, Zebrawood, Eucalyptus, Red Oak, and a couple with no overlays at all, never had any problems whatsoever |
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DCM4 |
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The shape of the string groove is more important the than string material used, imho. A nice tear drop shaped nock will distribute the load over a wider area.
Same principle as making the string loop with more strands, larger diameter... more surface area. This shape almost presumes an overlay, because typically the
thickness at the nock is not sufficient to accomodate a very pronounced or elongated teardrop shape. Also the string should lay straight on the braced bow, not
angled around the string groove.
I've used FF on yew and hackberry and found it doesn't even make an impression in the wood, which one can easily accomplish with a thumbnail. Again, it's all about the design of the nock and the diameter in the loop. FF plus is Dymeema, old FF was Spectra. FF+ came out because Spectra was being consumed for bullet proof vests. Dyneema is the material used for D97, and I suspect most string material. Difference being diameter, weave, wax content, etc. It is said the old FF was the lowest stretch when comparing apples to apples. That is, some strings are so strong per diameter comparing strings of same diameter but different material one could easily be comparing a 1000# (14 strand FF+) to a 2100# (14 strand 450+) string. This is in fact what going on when comparing a 14 strand B50 (560#) to 14 FF (980#) . FF+ is ~$23 for 8900' (1/4#), B50 ~$8 for 4200' (1/4#). When you do the math the price per string is irrelevant even for the most miserly consumer. This being my predisposition. Also, when you do the math it's no wonder the more dense material (B50 being twice as heavy per lenght as FF) is "slower." Not to mention efficiency lost to string stretch during the power stroke. Oddly with the premium material and particularly on bows with high early weight or "preload," string material can make all the difference, in terms of cast, noise and handshock. I think D97 may be nicer for most folks (I've found that to be true as well, depending upon context) because it may stretch a bit more than others. Creep is when the string elongates permanently, over a relatively long period of time. This is demonstrated by lower brace height, partly due to design and crafting, partly to matieral. All strings creep but eventually stablize. Stretch is non-permanent elongation, while under load. Compare a B50 string and a FF, made to brace a bow the same. The B50 will be noticably shorter. This stretch is proportional to load, so when the string returns home on the power stroke, a more stretchy string will augment hand shock, or after shot vibration, as if it were a spring or rubber band. To each his own, truly, but mischaracterizing the reality by parroting dogma serves no one. Best pic I have showing the teardrop shape of a string groove and laying straight on a braced bow, 14 strand FF string.
Last Edited By: DCM4
06/30/09 9:21 AM.
Edited 3 times.
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Alpinbogen |
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I'm a fan of Dynaflight 97. I've found it's quieter and stretches less than B-50 and FF. I make 14 strand strings just because the serving that I
use then fits my nocks well. I also add 2 extra 8" strands in each loop to build them up for insurance. I've used it on 100+ selfbows over the last
decade without issue. Some had wood or horn overlays, and some didn't.
If anything, I think D97 is actually safer to build bows with than B50. The reason is that when you early brace a bow with D97, the string doesn't stretch like B50 does. If you low-brace a bow with B50, it will stretch to a REALLY low brace, and in doing so often splits the nocks along the grain of the wood. That may not too big a deal if you start with fat limb tips and can pare the damage off, but I have had it to where it threatened the whole bow. To hit the same brace as D97, then, you have to intially flex the limbs much further to get the B50 strung...which the limbs may or may not be ready for. I've said before that I like the "idea" of linen, but haven't had much luck with it. They've broken for me sooner or later, as someone else mentioned, unexpectedly, with no prior evidence of fraying. If I had a broader primitive interest and only a few bows, I might be inclined to stick with it, and just make replacement strings as needed. But my interest is primarily in archery and I don't want think what it would take to keep all my bows perpetually outfitted in linen. I seriously don't know how guys even use artificial sinew. That stuff has rediculous stretch. Pull on a short length of it sometime. It will look like you're playing an accordian! I would think you'd have to bend the limbs all the way to half draw just to get the string on at a full brace height. D97 is priced perhaps a hair higher than FF, but way less than 450 and other string types. Here's a link to the manufacture's retail list. It gives a basis for comparison, but you can probably find better pricing through archery dealers. One of the nice sales things is that they offer mini spools. I tend to buy my base string color (black) in the big spool for lower unit cost, and the accessory colors in the smaller spools to save on actual cost. But with any of these strings, when you break it down to a per bowstring cost, the difference is negligible. http://www.bcyfibers.com/retail_prices/Price%20list%20retail%20update%203-09.pdf |
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NOMADIC PIRATE |
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Thanks David and Adam for taking the time to write some expanations on the matter
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toxophileken |
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Yes, very clear info, thanks!
David, it seems to me like you should write an aricle for PA magazine on this subject... Just take a few more photos and you are pretty much there. It's about time people were encouraged to make a rational decision on string material, based on facts and not dogma. We could even do some polls here to see how many people have had which materials fail or had bows fail with which materials, and why... Ken |
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Woodbear |
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I have just a few comments on the string material issue.
First off I agree with David (DCM4) about the design of nocks and surface area. I serve the loops to increase the diameter and resist wear. I also design the nocks to avoid sharp bends in the string as it passes onto the nocks. Second, regarding artificial sinew, there are two types. I have some (from Tandy leather) that tested at about 70#, that is made of nylon. Even at 70# breaking strength this stuff stretches excessively. The nylon artificial sinew is not suitable for bow strings in my opinion...............Then there is another type of artificial sinew that I have seen sold by some archery suppliers, that is made of polyester. Dacron is a DuPont trade name for polyester, which is what B-50 is made from. This type (polyester) of artificial sinew should be the equivalent of B-50, and quite suitable for bows strings. Third, if I want to go natural, the best string material I have used is linnen. Mine is from Pyrosupplies, and is of medium quality. Breaks at about 35#, and makes a fine string for a 50# ish bow with 7 or 8 strands. This needs serving with 0.013" dia. serving material to get a string the right size for a standard plastic nocked arrow.......Linnen is actually less stretchy than B-50 for an equal strength string, however, I have broken a number of linnen strings. They have all failed near the nock where the string is flexing with every shot. My B-50 strings by contrast, have never failed. Dave |
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CarvedTones |
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Dave/Bear,
You're right; it didn't even click when discussing this that right on the front of the roll I got it said "waxed poly thread". I got it from eCanyons, which supplies NA craft materials and bow making was listed as one of the intended uses. It appears I did not save any money over "regular" Dacron, but I do feel a lot better about the choice knowing it is virtually the same as B-50 and I do like the way it looks. Thanks for clearing that up. I had it in my head that the 70# was good and 30# was bad but it appears the source material is the issue. -Andy
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