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tunaboy |
Another bbi warbow question |
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I have been lucky enough to procure a board of ipe from our friend Ken, and i plan to make a BBI war bow (100lb at 26''). My first question is does the
grain have to be perfect? My next question is what are the dimentions i should cut the board to before i glue the bamboo backing onto it? any and all
suggestions/tips are greatly appreciated. Thanks
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Jorgumund |
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You don't mention the length your bow will be, or the thickness of your bamboo backing, both of which would influence dimensions quite a lot.
I am also curious about your proposed 26" draw. Warbows tend to be drawn much further than normal, and a rough guideline is normal draw length plus about 5" or so, so unless you currently shoot a very short draw you may want to reconsider that too. 1 and 1/8" wide by 1" thick with a good backing should easily give you 100lb with careful tillering, but you haven't given nearly enough information to narrow things down to anything other than a very rough guess. if it ain't broke, don't tiller it... |
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dutchwarbow |
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Tunaboy,
the grain doesn't have to be perfect. Bamboo is incredibly strong! In two of my glueups there's pretty much runoff in the ipé, but I don't think it's gonna hurt the bow in any way. 100#@26"? you sure? that's like 130#@32".... pretty heavy to start with! better aim for 100#@32", as a 'warbowdraw' is around 4" longer than your normal draw. You'll be drawing to the ear instead of drawing to the corner of your mouth. I'm with Jorgumund on the dimensions. If you want a 32" draw, go for 74"-77" ntn. For your 26" draw, let's say.. 64". However, you'd better cut the board and bamboo 1 1/2" wide before the glueup. My experience is that the sides of the glueup show messy gluelines, but when you shave 1/8" off both sides, it'll look way better. Nick |
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tunaboy |
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Thanks guys the board is a little less than11/8'' wide, 3/4'' thick and, 74''n'1/2''in length. I don't have the bamboo
yet, because i don't know how thin or thick i should have the bamboo. (PS i plan to use black bamboo, will this affect how thick i should make the bamboo.)
Last Edited By: tunaboy
05/24/09 11:45 AM.
Edited 2 times.
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mole |
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Richard Saffold is the only one I've seen using black bamboo. You might want to send him a pm to make sure it's up to the task. I got my ipe and bamboo
for my warbow from him.
John |
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dutchwarbow |
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better get some thick boo. 3/4" thick stave is pretty thin,,, even for ipé.
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toxophileken |
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Grain ipe for a BBI isn't critical, as long as you don't have knots and swirly areas of grain, generally.
You can easily get 100# with 26" draw, especially considering you can shorten the bow considerably. I wasn't aware you were going for such a draw when I cut the blank. Thicker bamboo could give you more bend resistance; but I would be confident in getting a longer draw heavy bow with black boo and that slat, myself. Otherwise, I wouldn't have selected it for you... For example, I think I could probably make a 90# @ 31" bow readily enough, using black bamboo. But you never really know until you start floor bending the core. The denser, darker ipe boards make nice narrow bows; but I've been finding that some of them take more set and don't have the bend resistance. One of the group I'm working on had a more reddish ipe, and it went to 28" with very little loss of reflex (straight mid section, reflexed outer limbs), even though it was fairly short (about 61" or so) for such a narrow bow. The draw weight being light made a big difference; but several longer bows of only a few pounds more draw took much more set, with more length and mass. Ideally in this sort of case, what I like to do is make a bow and find out what I can get out of that wood, and then take those lessons to the next bow out of the same wood. If it took too much set, or didn't come in heavy enough, I can change the design accordingly. Also, if, as in the case of the bow I mentioned above, the wood behaves better than I had expected, I can push the next bow a bit. Ken |
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tunaboy |
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Thanks Mole, Nick, and Ken what ill en up doing is trying to put in about 11/4'' to 2'' of reflex to give myself some room for accidental set.
Ken im gonna take your and Nicks advice to have pretty thick bamboo to up the weight a little, but as you said im gonna wait and see how heavy the bow will
allow me to make it.(But im gonna hope for a big bow.) Thanks for the tips guys. PS i might change the draw length as Nick said to about 30'' instead
of 26'', and what dimensions do you take your bows to before gluing up a longbow?
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toxophileken |
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Andrew, I like to get the core floor bending before glue up, so the bow will keep reflex. You can clamp an untillered board into reflex, but it won't hold
any. I also like to bend my bamboo to see if I have it even. That way, tillering goes much smoother. I just hold it up and push on each end with a hand, and
see if the shape it makes is even. If I want thicker boo at the tips, most of the bend will be in the middle of the boo. This method has replaced my old habit
of using calipers to check corresponding spots on each limb to see if I had uniform thickness. This way is much easier, and makes more sense!
For the lighter elbs I've been gluing up, I've left a 12" full width section centered on the handle, and then taper down to 1/2" tips. For a longer draw/heavier bow, I would probably make the width taper more gradual. As far as thickness taper, I taper from the same place as the width (six inches either side of the handle) to about 1/2" (again) with the bandsaw, then I have to take a lot off with the jointer and belt sander to get them bending. Again, have the taper start out farther on the bow for a longer draw/heavier bow. When you floor bend it, count on the boo and glue adding at least double the draw weight. Typically, I used to have my bows come out waaaayyy too heavy out of the form. If it floor bends about like a 50 pound bow, you will be in the ball park... Ha ha. Glue in twice as much reflex as you want it to come out of the form with, which might be twice as much reflex as it will retain... So if you want it to come out straight, you might want to glue it up with 3" or 4" of reflex. It will then come out of the form with about 1 1/2" or 2" of reflex, depending on how stiff you left your core, how hot/dry it is where you let the bow sit in the form, and how long you let it sit in the form. Let it sit longer than you want to... Resist the urge to take it out early. Never hurts to leave it in another day... Oh, round the corners of the belly of your core (not the back- keep it flat for glue up), and when you floor bend it, do it so those corners are getting stretched, not the sharp corners on the back. Don't floor bend it too far before glue up (less than brace). When you pull it out of the mummy wrap, take it to finished with (except for tips, save for string tracking) and take the sharp corners of the back (boo) down. I like to trap them and get them nice and smooth before I floor bend it at all. Lifted splinters before, and it costs you width... If the thing is like bending an iron rod at that point, remember rounding the belly takes off a lot of weight... Good luck! Ken |
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dutchwarbow |
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Andrew
about the reflex; are you sure you wanna do this? you might regret it when you're past floortillering stage, or even earlier. Reflex is great on shorter, lighter bows, but I wouldn't recommend it on heavy warbows, especially not when it's your first. Why don't you glue it up first, give it a try, and add reflex in your later warbows? a nice design for 30" drawlength (however I recommend aiming for 31-32") is: 1 1/4" at handle, starting to taper after 2/3 of the limbs to 1/2" tips. 74" is safe enough for a 32" drawlength. you can make it a little shorter when aiming for 30" Nick |
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tunaboy |
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Thanks Nick ill make it straight with no reflex, but about the design the wood is only 1'' wide, will i need to glue on a riser or just aim for a
shorter draw and lower draw weight?
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Richard Saffold |
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Ken, I think the dark Ipe tends to do better when the humidity is up a bit like around 10-11% and this might affect some of it as well. I learned this at
Mojam shooting bows hard in the 1--% humidity and heat.
As far as the grain irregularities I had this 70# I had been shooting and I send it to Censu in Malta, and before he strung the bow it had blown out a little piece of wood and a chrysal had formed where there was just the slightest irregularity when I had the bow.. I'm quite sure the pressure drop and dry air en route played a role as I'm rather meticulous about what I'm shipping long distance.. So my outlook on these grains has changed a little even though I think I'd be shooting the heck out of the bow if I hadn't shipped it.. So that was a good learning experience... |
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dutchwarbow |
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andrew, glueing up a riser won't be a good option. It will only add stress. But 1" width will do
Nck |
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tunaboy |
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Thanks i plan on drawing the design out on the board today and hopefully in a month or so ill have a war bow.
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Mark in England |
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There are many different opinions. This is my personal view based on some good advice from Dan Perry.
You can do some tillering on the belly slat which will give you a good indication of the potential draw weight. A tillered belly slat can be a good indicator offinal draw weight when compaired to a similar finished bow. Adding a backing will add around 10lb draw weight. Each inch of glued in reflex will add around 10lb draw weight (not necessarily showing as final relfex but the effectis still there). So a belly slat that is pulling the same as a 70lb bow just past brace height will weight 80lb if made straight and 100lb with two inches of reflex. Dan Perry advised against glueing too much reflex in,and also advises that asmuch work as possible is done before the glue up as possible, and as little wood removed in final tillering after glue up. Any removal of wood from the belly reduces power whileincreasing reflex (odd but true!). Any wood removed from the backingeven in sanding reduces relfex and loses power. I would keep the bow at it's current width and depth at the handle. Keep the handle section stright and untapered in any way for about 12 inches in the centre and then stright taper to the tips in both width and depth. I would aim for about 1/2" depth of Ipe at the tips and less than this in width, say 3/8ths. Chamfer and round the belly edges to give it a D profile and tiller for an absolutely even bend. No handle is needed if this is to be a warbow. Keep the bow the ful llength as shortening it is an option later to raise the draw weight and a longer bow is easier to pull back if the weight is a bit high for you. Tiller for an absolutely even bend at brace height using a wooden blockor walky-talky stick before even thinking about the draw weight. Once the bend is even take a look at the draw weight just past brace compaired to other bows you have. This will give you a fair indication of the potential. Work out whether you are within target, whether any wood need to come off, what effect the backing and reflex will have. When ready glue up into reflex and once the glue is well and truly ready take out of the clamps etc. I allow at least twice the manufacturers time to be on the safe side. Be generous with the glue. It is a lot easier to clean glue off than get it into a dry joint afterwards! Sand the bow clean and ideally the bow is ready to shoot! If the bow wastilleredeven at brace height andchecked for strength it should pull nice and clean andeven to the desired drawweight and length. As this is not a perfect world this will probably not be the case though! Brace the bow and check the tiller at brace using a walky-talky stick and see if any area are stiff or weak. Mark these so you can see them. I would now put the bow on a tiller tree and pulley system with a good bow scale at the string and pull one inch past brace height at least 25 times. Go back and check the bend. do a few passes with a scraper and clean upwith a fine file. Work the bow 25 more times and check for an even bend again. Gradually work the bow back, never ever pulling it past the desired draw weight, working the draw back an inch at a time, checking for an even tiller at brace height as well as looking at the shapewhen drawn. I have found that an odd shapedrawn can be checked and verified at brace height. An even shape at brace givesan even drawn shape. This process will slowly work you and the bow to the point where a good even tiller is achieved at the desired draw weight and draw length or if not give you the best possible. Keep the bow as well finished as possible. I like to keep mine almost ready for polish.Why have a bow where you want it only to have to lose quite a bit of thatin sanding out careless tool marks. I reckon you can probably get the poundage you want if you go careful. I have found that Ipe can suddenly change with wood removal so go slow. Changes in density within a stave can lead to lumps and bumps being needed to get an even bend but go for the bend rather than asthetics. Ipe can take a failry thick bamboo backing. If you flatten the backing so that it is about 3/16ths at the crown and then cut it to match the profile of the pretillered stave and keep it that thick at the tips it shoudl end up keeping your even belly stave failry even once glued up with perhaps some material to be taken off the tips if they are a little stiff. Good luck. Mark in England |
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tunaboy |
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well the bows just about roughed out and ready to pre tiller, but unfortunately i needed remove 1/2'' on each end with a CABINET SCRAPER!!! So the bows
almost ready and hopefully before summers end ill have a nice war bow. Thank you to all who helped me.
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elk country rp |
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lol- ipe has taught me to make sure my tips are bending alot before i glue on a backing. scraping for hours ends up being not so much fun....
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dutchwarbow |
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Hey Andrew,
heavy warbows are just plain fun to shoot. They really zip heavy arrows over long distances, breaking and penetrating everything wich faces them. They're highly addictive, the feeling of power, of strength, and pride when shooting those bows is hard to match. I've heard thousands of times that I shouldn't start too heavy, since I'm still growing. I thought 'they're probably right, I shouldn't go too heavy. I decided to go no higher than 100# till I'm 18. but, something weird happened. 100# did actually feel pretty light, and I made a 115# bow, wich settled at around 110#. I loved shooting it, and still do. But I wanted some more power, since this weight was pretty easy to master, and I wanted to have a reall heavy bow, to shoot occasionally. So, I made my 130#. First time drawing it felt so damn good! Then I shot it a day long. After like 20 arrows my shoulder started to hurt a bit. But only at a specific moment of drawing the bow. I was too pleased with my bow's performance, and didn't want to quit. Pain got worse after a while, but just kept going. After 50 arrows I decided to quit. since my shoulder hurt. My whole shoulder. Well, no surprise, after 50 arrows with 130# bow, I thought, It would certainly be over next day. The next day however, I couldn't even pretend to draw a bow, when just stretching my left arm out, and 'drawing' with my right arm, my whole shoulder hurt. 2 weeks later I shot my 110# again, only 15 arrows or so. Things looked okay, had only little pain. Well, thinking I was fully recovered, I tried yesterday to draw a bow I was making for a deal. It was still 110#@30", presumaly 120+ @ 32". The weather wasn't all that warm, my shoulders were pretty cold, and I hadn't done anything of a warming up (never actually did such a thing). Well, the pain in my shoulder sorta woke up. Drew some 50#ers today, and it didn't feel too good. we're both teens, you and me (right?). I don't know about you, but I did an awesome lot of weight lifting before I got into warbowarchery. Had some minor injuries, mainly in my shoulders. Now I think I'm probably just too strong for my skeleton and joints. I can pull 130#+, but my shoulders won't take it. Same thing for you, even if you haven't done any weightlifting, I'm sure you'll be able to draw your shoulders to death, since after a couple of months of drawing heavier bows you'll gain plenty strength to go too heavy. I don't want to say you shouldn't shoot heavy bows, in my opinion, everybody has to experience this mighty feeling. What I want to say however is; take care. Make a bow you can shoot at least 30arrows with without any sense of pain. this is probably equal to a max of 60arrows the first time you shoot it. If you want to go heavy, say + 110#, you should certainly do this, but only after you shot your lighter bow for a while, and you're totally warmed up. Fling a few arrows, untill you feel pain, then quit, shoot the lighter one a couple of times, and call it a day. This will probably prevent alot of pain and ruined shoulders. I've met a really professional bowyer long ago (niko macura). He used to shoot heavy bows, but after a serious injury, can't shoot more than 35#, and wakes up with pain every day. I didn't knew it when I met him, but this certainly impressed me. Others even had to quit archery, because they wanted to go too heavy, in a too short time. well, you're just like me a teenager, and if I heard this, I would've pretty much ignored it Nick |
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French Crow |
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Nick, sorry to read about your problems. Be patient and you'll fully recover.
Bruno
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