Holmgards: Are They All the Same?

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PaleoAleo		#41	[-]
Posts: 12196 (02/05/09 1:01 PM) Founder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	LOL.... I'm such an idiot..... I was referring to Jurgen Junkmann's book on ancient European bows/arrows (with some spearthrower aka atlatl info) that I own. The book is in French, but it was originally written in German, by Jurgen. I bought this book while on a visit to France some years ago. I used the book in part for researching the ancient bow list in the TBB4 chapter. I made numerous references to Jurgen's book in the bow chart/list. I love this little book, which among other things, has photos and descriptions of Mr. Junkmanns making a replica yew bow with mesolithinc tools. I basically just look at the photos because the text is in French, and as indicated previously, I only understand the most basic things in other languages. Anyway, I just learned that Kfouhsr, the guy bringing us this wonderful information... our very own "JJ" IS Jurgen Junmkanns! How cool is that? Welcome Jurgen. It's great to have you on the forum here with us. I have admired your work from afar for quite some time now. Perhaps our paths will cross one day. I know from being a member in the World Atlatl Association that you also compete in the European atlatl contests. It is my dream to travel to Europe again to participate in the archery and spearthrower contests. While visiting France back in 2004, I stood outside the cave at Mas d'azil where the contests are held. I went at the wront time of year, however, and so I missed the yearly contest there. Some day I will return! Tom
Patrick St M		#42	[-]
Posts: 399 (02/05/09 1:07 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That's funny. You never know who is lurking behind an obscure screen name. "Pierre" must be Pierre Lansac. He used to frequent theses forums with good bows and info. He did get "Bakered" pretty good for posting a glass cloth backed bow which may have turned him off.
PaleoAleo		#43	[-]
Posts: 12197 (02/05/09 1:17 PM) Founder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes, Pierre Lansac! He still stops in now and then. Another great guy I'd like to meet in person one day. Jurgen, I hope I didn't embarass you with my introduction above! If so, you can shoot me with a blunt arrow (half/drawn) to pay me back!! LOL... Tom
kfoushr		#44	[-]
Posts: 41 (02/05/09 3:24 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hello Tom, thank you for for praising my little book... It´s great to have this exchange between people so far away from each other in this forum. JJ
PaleoAleo		#45	[-]
Posts: 12198 (02/05/09 5:55 PM) Founder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes Jurgen, that is the strength of the internet, yes? I find it fantastic that we have bowyers (and flintknappers, and atlatlists, and others) from all around the world sharing ideas here on PaleoPlanet. It is not always perfect here and at times it is less than peaceful, but the good things far out weigh the negative things. Look at the excitement of the European Bowmaker's gathering in Bulgaria. Our friends there are making something wonderful...we are all part of that excitement! For all, here's a little teaser from Jurgen's book. Again, the original is in German. This one has been translated into French. I would love to one day own a copy in English! Just some photos: A neolithic bow in progress: The page with the holmegard bow and the mollegabet bow : Not to worry...the author had given me permission to post these images! Thanks Jurgen. Tom
ber643		#46	[-]
Posts: 2465 (02/06/09 6:05 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	That's a great little (big) sidelight of interest re this thread, Tom. Just part of why PP has such apparent universal appeal. Bernie - "Hunters Are People Too"
Fundin		#47	[-]
Posts: 1861 (02/06/09 6:15 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Great thread, thanks JJ for the info. I have made a few elmbows from inner parts that are just sawed out, and unless severely violated it works. I am using U. glabra-(wych elm) Large veriation between specimen tough
PaleoAleo		#48	[-]
Posts: 12199 (02/06/09 7:15 AM) Founder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	My apologies for side-tracking the discussion with comments about Jurgen's book, etc. On the bright side, there is a pic of the Holmegard bow in there! Tom
Fundin		#49	[-]
Posts: 1863 (02/06/09 1:46 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JJ, by the way I would love a copy of your thesis when its printed, it will probably be more interesting to me tahn my to you (Spatial behaviors of wild boar in relation to humans is the preliminary title). I am not very good in german, but I get at least some. Will you produce a pdf of it?
Springbuck		#50	[-]
Posts: 160 (02/06/09 9:16 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It is nice to have the real experts here. Almost everything I "knew" about the style had been gleaned from the TBB books. I still wonder how they came up with the measurments and why their replicas bent less in the outer limbs. I also wish I could get a copy of your book... So the next obvious question is, why is the Mollegabet bow so radically different in shape and design from its contemporaries. WOODBEAR SAID: I have not re-calculated your numbers where you conclude that the pyramid bow has 1/3 of the mass in the outer 40% of the arm, but only 20% of the energy storage, but I am sure there is something amiss with the conclusion. ......One of the things not published by Tim is the fact that with a uniform strain and cross-section bow arm, the stored energy is directly proportional to the mass of any particular working section of the bow arm. This is one reason why Badger's bow mass principal works. .....Of course, if the tip does not taper to a perfect point, but has some width where the string attaches, the strain can not be uniform all the way to the tip. The very tip will necessarily have lowered strain, and slightly more mass. Stiffening the tips does mean that they will store less energy in themselves, and consequently require a little more wood in the inner arms to compensate. The point of it being only 6% of energy storage in the last 20% of arm length is that you only have to add 6% more working wood to compensate for completely stiff tips for the last 20% of the bow arm. It is virtually impossible to make the tips 100% stiff with any reasonable dimensions so in reality it is even less than 6% extra wood that is needed to compensate, not too severe a penalty for the stiff tip "Mollegabet" style bow. I agree with everything in your post, especially the second paragraph, but I was asleep at the wheel while doing the math.. I did the quick calculations with a perfect isosceles triangle limb, just for easy math, on scratch paper as I was posting, and I think I missed multiplying by .5 for the 1/2" thickness. The volume is closer to 2.25 in cu. , which is only 15%, much less than 30%. I was relying on Tim Baker's numbers from the design chapter in the latest TBB IV for the energy storage #'s, as I said. Sorry.... My point was similar to what you wrote in your second paragraph, but I goofed my example... Last Edited By: Springbuck 02/06/09 9:34 PM. Edited 1 times.
Springbuck		#51	[-]
Posts: 161 (02/06/09 9:42 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JJ. I probably won't get to read the thesis, so... what is your guess as to why the Mollegabet bow was made the way it was, especially since the workmanship and design were obviously well thought out and well executed. Why would they make such a bow if they didn't understand its advantages? If they did understand, why didn't they incorporate those design features in hunting bows made for adult men?
kfoushr		#52	[-]
Posts: 42 (02/07/09 12:47 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Actually we don´t understand very much of "why did they this or why didn´t they do that". (we can´t ask them:-) The Möllegabet bow is the only one of it´s kind, that was ever found, which doesn´t mean that this design wasn´t common in a certain time period in a certain region. I guess there were more of them... Wew don´thave enough finds to have a good picture of the bow landscape in that time. Are rigid tips really a benefit for a hunter? I doubt that, because stability should have been a main concern for these people. That is my point of view, from today. Others have other beliefs. In fact everybody believes he is right, or that his/ her favourite design works slightly better, faster, etc. That was probably also the normal case in prehistory. In the neolithic people started with a d-shsped section. In the end of neolithic they had it again. In between people were experimenting with other cross sections. I suppose it was belief of a slightly superior performance which led them to build concave or ridged section bows. Actually it didn´t change much;-) For my thesis I must ask you for being patient... JJ
tqpotia		#53	[-]
Posts: 637 (02/07/09 2:03 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	JJ, would you, please tell me is your book translated in English and how could I get it ? Thanks and regards, Kosio
kfoushr		#54	[-]
Posts: 43 (02/07/09 9:24 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hello Kosio, The little book is not yet available in english.But I would like to have it published in english, too. Got to find a publisher. JJ
africansky1972		#55	[-]
Posts: 155 (02/08/09 4:26 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I might be making a fool of myself, but wanted to make sure anyway. The Möllegabet is also a sapling bow like the Holmegaard? The back of the bow is the outside ring of an Elm sapling ? Just asking because it seems like a really good design and I have a piece of Black Locust and a Celtis Australis stave that might work....
Chr109		#56	[-]
Posts: 140 (02/08/09 7:42 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Would the publisher, Bos De Arc Press, of the Traditional Bower's Bibles be interested in publishing your book in to english? Just a thought.
kfoushr		#57	[-]
Posts: 44 (02/08/09 9:20 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Hello Afrikansky, Yes, all mesolithic bows, including the Holmegard and the Möllegabet type were made of small diameter elms (it´s less work...). The back follows the outer year ring. Chr109: Maaybe Bois d´arc press would be possible. I think Tom promised ask them;-) JJ
alan		#58	[-]
Posts: 27 (02/24/09 11:52 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Jurgen, If I have got this right, all the Stoneage Danish bows were made of elm, and most other European Stoneage bows were made of yew. Why do you think the Danish bows were elm? Was yew not available to them? And have you any more information about an English version of your book? Alan Clark
badger5149		#59	[-]
Posts: 4282 (02/24/09 12:32 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Another possibility is that elm is a great bow wood, very well suited for the designs they were using. Steve
Springbuck		#60	[-]
Posts: 187 (02/24/09 3:56 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	As I understood it, the evergreen forests were the first to populate areas as the glaciers retreated. Hardwoods came later, and elm was one of the suitable hardwoods that arrived early, too. Elm is awesome wood, when treated properly.

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