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Quote: ScalpCreek

I am a bit surprised that you can not even collect surface artifacts in Oz. Is that the law there? Oz has some very strict laws. My friend in Taz tells me that there are quite a number of hoodlums, who rob stores, people and vandalize private property there, and that police protection is somewhat lax. and I know you guys have very strict firearms laws too.

Hi Scalp

I am not sure of the exact laws. But you are not allowed to collect any artefacts at all, so far as I know.

There are a number of reasons that led to this law. When the English first settled here their House of Lords passed a decree that Australia was 'Terra Nullis'. In law this meant that the land belonged to no one, and therefore they could claim it.

This was an expediency that enabled them legally to kill, rape, terrorise and pillage any indigenous person who got in the way of the waterholes and land they needed to bring about a decent civilisation.

This law stood until the indigenous people of the Murray river area contested its legality in Court (I think late 80s to early 90s). They lost ... but most importantly they did not lose on the grounds that the land was not theirs .. they lost on the grounds that they could not prove that they had kept an un-interrupted kinship and association with the land from 1788 until their court case. This was a very big ask for any aboriginal to be able to prove and most thought that this finally settled it and 'Terra Nullis' stood.

As we were the people who had dispossessed then from maintaining this kinship (the court recognised kinship was equivalent to ownership) by forcefully resettling them and removing their children to white foster parents and destroying their culture ... This meant nothing in contesting ownership.

But in 1992 Eddie Mabo successfully proved that his people had done just that. They had passed down tribal law from ancestor to ancestor in an unbroken chain. The government had fought this all the way, even to the High Court, the last avenue for appeal. But they lost !!

As the government owned the islands that he (Eddie Mabo) and his kin were on they (the government) had to return the land. Since then they have had to return a huge amount of land in many other cases as well.

As this only applied to Government land most of the commercial property owners, graziers (ranchers ?) etc, were not overly concerned.

But in 1996 the Wik people successfully bought their case against the owners of pastoral leases on the western coast of Cape York peninsula. This meant that private property could be subject to these decisions .... many people became gravely concerned .. but to no avail, they continued to lose cases. The precedent had been set

Most people that hold, own, or lease large properties have now come to realise the inevitable. To forestall the loss of the land they have started to negotiate with the traditional owners (the Aboriginals) to come to some terms. The government, realising that the traditional owners would need help in these sort of negotiations appointed an Aboriginal committee that were skilled in these negotiations. And so the threat that could have divided us has been circumvented. Since then nearly all disputes have been resolved peacefully and amicably.

I an unsure, but the amount of land now held by tribal ownership would be between 10 and 20 percent of Australia. This means that in order to mine, farm, etc you must first obtain permission.

As well, many Museums have had to return their artefacts to the traditional owners. Before entering Aboriginal land held under native title you must obtain permission from the custodians of that land. It is now recognised that surface artefacts, whether on tribal, government or private land belong to the traditional owners.

More importantly, regarding surface artefacts is that the traditional owners were nomads. They only used rockshelters and caves as temporary accomodation and not very often. This means that artefacts and lithics from rockshelters give a biased view of pre-historical australia. New methods and methodologies for dating have been developed to examine surface artefacts as it is realised that they are the majority and that they contain the unbiased information. Very little geological change has occurred, and so there is very little stratification, even for very old objects, most of them are still only a few millimetres below the surface. Of course we have mountains, etc, but in the main Australia is a very flat arid continent. So flat that even light rain can expose, in some areas, thousands and thousands of artefacts. This is one of the reasons for the law preventing the disturbance or removal of surface artefacts.

I am sure that if any lawyers or law people are reading this they will question my simplified explanation of the High Court decisions, but generally speaking it happened as I have told it.

Another thing that most people do not understand is that Aboriginal people do not look on anything as their personal property. For example if you empty out your pockets right now you would probably say that all the items are your private property. But to an Aboriginal person this is not necessarily so, in a funny way Aboriginals do not believe they own anything, they believe that they are owned by the land and that their duty is to look after it according to the laws they were given by their ancestors.

When you see an Aboriginal tribe returning to their land for the first time having contested and won Native Title, you will see many of the women break down, sobbing, and apologising to the land for their having neglected it for so long. (Even tho they were prevented from caring for it thru no fault of theirs.) Like a mother being reunited with a lost child, who wastes no time with explanations, but simply hugs it to her bosom. For many of the older Aboriginals this (dispossession and repossession) all happened in their own lifetime.

'my poor land, my poor land' they say over and over ... its very moving ... really ... and if you have seen it you would not deny their sincerity. For them the victory of Native title is not a personal victory, but they did it for their 'poor land' and to satisfy their ancestors.

So you see, this puts surface artefacts in a totally different light from how us white fellers look at them. For us an artefact or lithic is something to put in a case and admire, for an Aboriginal, he would leave it where he found it, it still belongs to the land and the ancestors. He would only pick it up if he needed it temporarily.

In Australia we now have 2 maps ... one showing the nation and states as you would know it. Another showing the land as it would have looked (and may do again) under tribal law. Click Here for Aboriginal Map I have one myself, they cost 20 bucks or so

Scalp, hope I haven't bored you with all this. LOL ... regarding the crime rate over here it is probably slightly better than most countries, statistically. Its possible that your friend in Taz went thru a bad patch.

Quills ... I even have to ask permission to make a casting, that is, if they see me making it. LOL

cool bananas ... greg

Quills ... I think if we were to defer to them and allow indigenous peoples to advise us on the environment then my hopes for the future would be much, much brighter.

I am not an alternative type person. but I think that by living in an artificial environment, concrete jungle, metal vehicles, and by insulating ourselves against the sun, the rain, the temperature, the humidity and making this artificial environment the norm that we are heading for a fall.

People who live in touch with the earth make the best advisers for the earth.

cool bananas ... greg

Is that a War Cry of Commendation or opprobation ?? LOL

cool bananas ... greg

Well I had never heard that term before. You learn every day. Thanks for that Quills

cool bananas ... greg

LOL ..... Well i haven't read that book or heard of those others. But I do recall a poem from primary school when I was just a little fella

The first bird I ever shot in Ameriky was a pork-y-pine
I treed him up a haystack...
shot him with a barn shovel..
Why ... the first time I shot him I dang missed him
the second time I shot him ... I hit him in the same place..
Man ... how those feathers flew !!

LOL ... I gotta admit ... I never really understood it then ... and I don't really now ... but somehow its been carried around as personal baggage ever since.

cool bananas ... greg

PS: I also have a REALLY GREAT American book ... its called 'PIGS Ain't PIGS' and if it doesn't have you rolling around on the floor wetting your nappy then you would have to be entirely devoid of all humour. i'm at work at the moment and so can't look up the author .... but there is a quote in there called 'Perkins pays the freight'. I use it quite often, and it makes me smile just to write it here.