Medieval arrow bags in Archery - Primitive Bows Forum

RSS
Email

0 Points

Forum Jump

Medieval arrow bags

Author	Comment
Bowsticker	Medieval arrow bags	Lead	[-]
Posts: 224 Jan 3 08 4:26 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	"Other items of archery equipment recovered include arrow spacers - leather discs with holes for 24 arrows in them. Stitch marks round the edge of the disc indicate that there was a fabric sleeve attached to protect the shafts. The sleeve was single ended and only protected the lower part of the shafts. There would have been a drawstring at the lower end, enabling the archer to withdraw the arrows by pulling them downwards through the disc." I thought I understood that text from the Maere Heath website (thought it looked basically like the quivers we use today, but made from linen), but now that I read it again... what does the Italic text really imply? That they drew the arrows out from below the "quiver"... with the feathers going through the arrow disc? You can't do that in the heat of a battle... did they withdraw all arrows and put them in the ground before a battle or something? I first, incorrectly (?), thought it was like this picture, but with the arrows drawn up through the holes (with broadheads I guess it's not as easy of course) http://www.english-longbow.co.uk/largepics/arow%20bag%20with%20arrows.jpg ------------------------------------ Made bows in 2003-2004. Back in business since 2007, excited and determined! ------------------------------------
	Remove this ad
Bowsticker		#1	[-]
Posts: 224 Jan 6 08 4:35 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	What about Rod and other people interested in the English longbow... ever made one of these? ------------------------------------ Made bows in 2003-2004. Back in business since 2007, excited and determined! ------------------------------------
boybowyer		#2	[-]
Posts: 677 Jan 6 08 7:43 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	OK. How friggin' cool is that. I think I might have to make an attempt at one of those. Thanks for the post. BB
PaleoAleo		#3	[-]
Posts: 14917 Jan 6 08 8:07 PM Founder Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	That's who I 'm hoping will know - Rod or Jaro or???? Tom (just keeping it on the first page).
The Burnt Hill Archer		#4	[-]
Posts: 1241 Jan 6 08 9:01 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Quote: "I first, incorrectly (?), thought it was like this picture, but with the arrows drawn up through the holes (with broadheads I guess it's not as easy of course)" im deffinately not very knowlegable in this subject, but have read a couple of books. the leather disk would probably work if you had bodkins on the arrows. as far as sticking the arrows in the ground, there are alot of paintings and drawings of the archers with their arrows stuck in the ground. it would seem to me that they would have ample time in prepairing for battle to take their arrows out of the quivers and stick em in the ground. like i said, this is just my thoughts and if somebody that is more knowlegeable refutes, go with them. Phil Stalk softly, and carry a bent stick.
Logan McKnight		#5	[-]
Posts: 18 Jan 6 08 9:44 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I've looked at a few forum topics on this medieval arrow bag or sheaf, I've also had the experience of being around longbow archers who have bags like this, or very similar. What some old illustrations seem to indicate is that the bag can be opened from the 'top' or 'bottom', the top being the end with the fletchings and the bottom being the end with the points. One could easily open the 'bottom' of one of these bags, grip an arrow by the point and draw the arrow through the holes in the leather spacer. The feathers will just fold down as you pull the arrow through and come out ready for use. Some people get confused by the idea of drawing fletches through an enclosed space but it is not a problem in my experience. Some people who draw arrows from their belt also draw the arrow 'through' the belt, flattening the fletches as they pass, it does no harm to the arrows so far as I can see and is often the quickest way to draw an arrow. There is also medieval documentation of 'boys' being employed in battles bringing sheafs of arrows to the archers as they ran low, the arrows were most often carried in a waxed or oiled canvas bag like the image you have shown here. The arrows were most certainly transported in the bag you have shown, and even brought up to the archers in such a bag when their own supply ran low. I personally do not see any difficulty arising from an archer having a bag like this at his feet and drawing from it, or drawing many from the bag and placing them in the dirt. I'm certain archers had as many individual habits as we do today, but I am sure this kind of bag was used on campaign and in the heat of battle, my opinion is that drawing an arrow from such a bag would not have impeded the archers in the slightest. That's my two cents anyways
Rod		#6	[-]
Posts: 3970 Jan 7 08 2:51 AM Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The leather discs are just to keep the fletchings apart in individual sheaves and are still used today by one or two fletchers. The linen bags are essentially covers for arrow baskets, which is how sheaves of military shafts were commonly transported and issued in the mediaeval period. The use of quivers in the neolithic is irrelevant to mediaeval military usage, in fact the use of quivers disappears almost entirely in English mediaeval military custom. There is evidence of single sheaves being transported in bags or bagged baskets, but in ordinary use both bags and baskets would commonly be disposed of as an un-necessary encumbrance. A few arrows were commonly stuck in the belt or thrown on the ground and sheaves are usually only shown "attached" to the archer on the march or shooting at a defended position (whilst on the march?). Quivers only really crop up in use with crossbows and in the 16thC, after the heyday of the military bow. Even the "quivers" on the Bayeux tapestrry appear to be arrow bags rather than true "quivers". Even in hunting scenarios where the crossbowman has a small quiver, the longbowman carries a few shafts simply thrust into his belt. We still see "re-enactors" with their ladybows wearing quivers, and actors doing likewise, but the fact is that although quivers were known of, we did not use them with the war bow and their use did not become commonplace again until the emergence of the sporting bow in the post mediaeval period. Rod. It's meant to be simple, not easy.
Matti		#7	[-]
Posts: 342 Jan 7 08 6:14 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I just can't believe the archers carried non protected arrows in their waists when they were on campaign. When it rains the arrows are ruined, wood crooked and glue melting in fletches. Or traveling without arrows because the enemy could be lurking behind the next bush and there is no time to fetch arrows from storage wagons. So I assume each guy had a set of personal arrows in a bag, maybe 12 which is quite manageable and when a battle started they got more supplies from storage. Just imagine, you have 12 big arrows and you can't keep them under the belt all the time. Where do you put them?
Logan McKnight		#8	[-]
Posts: 18 Jan 7 08 9:05 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The arrow bag being discussed here held 24 arrows I believe, these bags were most likely oiled to protect from the weather somewhat. I have read documents describing the duty of a yeoman archer to carry at least two sheaves of arrows, a sheaf later being described as a bag like this with 24 arrows in it. So it seems possible each archer was expected to have 48 arrows on hand for campaign, with resupply coming from the kings wagons. Having a few arrows in the belt was exactly what they would do if 'the enemy could be lurking around the next bush', but in such a situation their sword would likely be ready instead of many dozen arrows. Also it is important to keep in mind that in a combat situation, medieval arrows were basically 'fire and forget', the fletches were wrapped with thread because they expected the glue to break down in the weather of a long campaign. It's not like they walked around with dozens of arrows tucked in their belt unprotected for months on end, more likely is the situation where a half dozen or so were drawn from a bag, tucked in the belt if danger was imminent and then loosed or returned to the bag when things settled down.
KdeJ	re	#9	[-]
Posts: 116 Jan 7 08 9:49 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Hi. Well, I know some people who have build it. It looks almost the same. And rather easy to make I think they said. And it seems to be more or less 'authentic' too.
	Remove this ad
Bowsticker		#10	[-]
Posts: 224 Jan 7 08 2:43 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	One thing I've been wondering about is why almost all arrow bags I see are of white canvas. For example here is doesn't say they are white, but the container of wicker have white textile, so does any picture or finding say they were actually from white linen? http://cunnan.sca.org.au/wiki/Arrow_bag I'm going to make mine from natural linen since I like the color better you see.
greenchicken	I made one	#11	[-]
Posts: 3191 Jan 7 08 2:50 PM Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I made on of these a long time ago. Never considered opening it from the other end. COuld easily work but I do not see any advantage to it. First off you risk injury from the point. Second it delivers the arrow to the wrong end up, you would have to juggle arrow to the nock end. But I might give a try. Here is my old link: ARROW BAG Last Edited By: greenchicken Jan 7 08 10:53 PM. Edited 1 times.
KdeJ	re	#12	[-]
Posts: 116 Jan 7 08 3:13 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I think canvas is a bit tougher/stronger than linnen. You cant have any archers in your army that has lost all his arrows because of a 'cheapo' bag.
Rod		#13	[-]
Posts: 3970 Jan 8 08 3:18 AM Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	As I recall one of the Osprey booklets has a few drawings of variations on how a sheaf would be carried in a bag or basket combination set up for access. Mind you, you are only going to be drawing bodkins out by the nock, not anything barbed and the idea of dragging the fletch through na small hole such as those in a leather disc does not appeal. Rod. It's meant to be simple, not easy. Last Edited By: Rod Jan 9 08 3:31 AM. Edited 1 times.
bookworm		#14	[-]
Posts: 351 Jan 9 08 7:23 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Rod, I think this is the image you are referring to. It is from English Longbowman, 1330-1515 by Clive Bartlett and is part of the Osprey series. There was a similar topic in the Arrows and Quivers forum a couple of years ago. Here's the link: Medieval Arrow Bags And All That? Doug "I was glad I could answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't know." - Mark Twain, from Life on the Mississippi.
Bowsticker		#15	[-]
Posts: 224 Jan 9 08 3:16 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	So... what about archers in the 12th or 13th century for example... did they then never draw the arrows through the leather spacer upwards? Or am I wrong to think bodkins were more in use during later periods of the Middle Ages? And broad heads were more common earlier? ------------------------------------ Made bows in 2003-2004. Back in business since 2007, excited and determined! ------------------------------------
bookworm		#16	[-]
Posts: 351 Jan 10 08 10:50 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	It's a bit difficult to say, as recognizing the potential of massed, organized military archery during the middle ages is generally credited to Edward the First (Longshanks), reigned 1272 to 1307, so comparing archers used mainly to harass opposing armies to archers used to beat opposing armies is a little unfair. However, there is the Bayeux Tapestry evidence of archers with what appear to be quivers and the Hedeby quiver finds. See this link: Hedeby Quivers . If you look at fig. 22 at that link, you'll notice Bayeux Tapestry archers wearing quiver like containers, but you will also notice one of them is holding a bunch of arrows in the bow hand, much like Native American horse archers, and others, are known to have done for rapid firing. (By the way, Rod/Jaro , do you know of anyone who has tried this with a war bow? Is it even possible?) You'll also, no doubt, notice that the arrows appear to be barbed or broad head like, which lends credence to the idea that broad head arrows were in use in the early days of military archery and as the armor got better the bodkin became more prevalent. As the bodkin becomes more prevalent, you have the rise of the arrow bag/basket which doesn't need to be quite as sturdy as a leather quiver to haul around bodkin points, is lighter, and, probably, faster and cheaper to make. There are holes in this theory, of course. The Bayeux Tapestry arrows could be stylized and their "quivers" could possibly be baskets, while in Secrets of the War Bow, by Hugh Soar, Mark Stretton demonstrated that most period arrow types could penetrate plate armor pretty effectively, including the big swallowtail broad heads, so nothing can be thought of as conclusive. Regardless, enough evidence is out there to say that archers during the Hundred Years War, or at least the armies they were in, used arrow bags/baskets and that at least some archers stuck arrows beneath their belt for handy access and that some liked to stick their arrows in the ground during battle. Different situations called for different methods and every archer, I would guess, had their preference. Just my two cents, and I could be completely wrong. Doug "I was glad I could answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't know." - Mark Twain, from Life on the Mississippi.
Rod		#17	[-]
Posts: 3970 Jan 11 08 4:56 AM Administrator Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	If by "big swallowtailed broadheads" you mean type 15's, they are not war heads but large barbed hunting heads. All these pictures showing bundles securle attached to the belt are derived from "on the march" or "siege" situations. In other words, times when you are not anticipating immediate involvement in hand to hand fighting. It should be noted that in illustrations of battle situations where hand to hand fighting is likely or imminent, no-one has such an impediment tied to their waist. In these situations, a few a shafts might be tucked in the belt, but generally bags and shafts are thrown to the ground if not in the belt. To answer the question about holding arrows in the bow hand, yes it is possible if you are easy with the bow in question, but too mamy heavy bow shooters are still at the stage of being overbowed and besides it is more a hunting and cavalry bow practice than typically one of the English mediaeval archer. As an aside it should also be noted that these systems are often less problematic in use with an unbarbed point, though barbed points can be carried and drawn point first. Rod. It's meant to be simple, not easy.
	Remove this ad

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Yuku free message boards

Medieval arrow bags

Medieval arrow bags